What do you guys know about the "Rosie Wrap" early 50s winding style?

[Possum]

shootouts and trolls....

I am getting the feeling this thread was started by a troll trying to start a fight. Maybe?

The last shootout Vintage Guitar Magazine did was a travesty. It was a PAF shootout, and to "even the playing field" they though that removing the covers from everyone's submissions would make testing more equal. I don't know anyone who didn't think that was a horrible idea :-) You send in your best work and some guy butchers it so it'll sound its "best" compared to other butchered pickups. They somehow forgot to invite me and in retrospect I am thankful I wasn't in the mix. The very idea of "shoot" "out" implies competiton and blood. Thankfully VG avoided picking "best" or "choice" pickups of the bunch, they simply reviewed them, which is in the end the only sane idea. Personally I don't think I would send an entry to any of those things, its too great a risk, agendas, maybe someone had a bad day, maybe someone doesn't like you personally, maybe your pickup got scanned in some device at the post office that messed with the magnets, too many things that end your reputation on a large scale media exposure thing. Barf.......

[ken]

Or maybe a setup of another kind... like maybe seeing if there were any other Tele pickup makers in here. Did you ever get the feeling that you are being monitored?

I remember that article now - I had to think about it for a minute. I didn't like it much either, for the reasons you stated. Besides, each maker makes his/her pickups to his/her own idea of great tone, using parts that are chosen specifically to help make that tone. Removing any parts (even covers) changes the basic tone of a pickup drastically, and many times NOT for the better. It seemed almost like some of the better sounding pickups in that article originally had covers, while some maybe possibly less than stellar (but possibly popular?) examples did not. Otherwise, why would anyone need to 'level a playing field'? Either pickups sound good or they don't.

IMO I like a 'shootout' if done properly, if only because it would let me see how my pickups stack up against everyone else's. I was visualizing a 'auto show' or 'microbrewed beer tasting' sort of thing, where judges check out each pickup based purely on tone and build quality with no hidden agendas.
However, I know that that would never happen, since everyone has an agenda of one kind or another. I know because I hang at various forums too, and I hear it all the time.

Ken

[pupoholic]

Conspiracy theories? -- tin hats for all...

I am very sure that was just a inquring pickup customer that thought a pup makers forum would be a good place to ask this question about a wind pattern.

perfect shootouts are very time consuming...
for one because wood is never identical you have to use the same guitar,
next output considerations must be carefully cauclated during height adjustments.. a simple turn of the screw will bring the pup up into a louder area under the strings and the listener would be fooled into thinking he is hearing a much fuller and responsive pup..

there is only one way to ever find out whos got the most game...

we would all have to have a pup makers showdown, everyone was to use the same chassis and the same gauss readings... and go wind up your best puppy.. they are loaded into the same guitar one by one and tested with equipment as well as human ears... and blindfolds or blind test sessions would be the thing to do..

but heres the problem, NONE of us that are even the slightest bit successfull has the time for such trivial nonsence...

you can take those tin hats off now.. that is if ya ever really were serious about that?

[Possum]

.......

Why should you even CARE how your pickups "stack up" against others? You can get yourself into a real mental trap by comparing yourself to others. I purposefully don't listen to other sound clips from other makers for that reason. I think the last time I ever did this was on Acme guitars site where they have sound clips of different maker's strat pickups. They all sounded exactly alike. I was approached by them once, I decided not to go that route.

For me the only thing that matters is what I personally think of my own pickups in a live situation. When I get a set thats finally dialed in at a live situation and makes me go crazy on guitar I know I hit my mark and the set is ready to sell. I've taken stuff to the jam and had the host play it and had him make them sound bad by turning the tone control back on an already dark sound set, I get up and make them sound great. Then there's the players who have no talent who can make anything sound horrible. You have to be the final word on the subject. Hopefully customers will like the same thing you do too :-)

[corduroyew]

Conspiracy theories? -- tin hats for all...

perfect shootouts are very time consuming...
for one because wood is never identical you have to use the same guitar,
next output considerations must be carefully cauclated during height adjustments.. a simple turn of the screw will bring the pup up into a louder area under the strings and the listener would be fooled into thinking he is hearing a much fuller and responsive pup..

there is only one way to ever find out whos got the most game...

we would all have to have a pup makers showdown, everyone was to use the same chassis and the same gauss readings... and go wind up your best puppy.. they are loaded into the same guitar one by one and tested with equipment as well as human ears... and blindfolds or blind test sessions would be the thing to do..

I could see why everybody would need to install the pickups into the same guitar, but controlling everything else just takes away anybodies ability to make something unique and different. You might as well tell everybody they have to use a stewmac kit with fully charged magnets just so that we can keep thing even. Require everybody to have the same gauss readings??? Why? what would that prove? Gauss readings are an important part of pickup making. A little high or a little low and my pickups don't sound like my pickups any more. What if I make my pickups with a 10% lower gauss than you. Then what? Who has to change for the shootout? What if my pickups with 10% lower gauss make my pickups sound better when the amp is turned to 8 instead of 7. If they are testing with the volume at 7 does that mean that my pickups aren’t as good as the ones that come alive at 7? Of course not. It just means that the potential of the pickup was not unlocked. Sometimes you need to play around with things like amp setting to make a pickup come alive. Just because a pickup doesn't sound good with a flat EQ and the volume half way up doesn't mean the pickup can't sound as good or better than pickups that do sound good with a flat EQ. In a good test you have to play with the amp settings as you go so that you can figure out how to make the pickup come alive. When you test pickups you are supposed to be looking for the true potential, not looking for how they sound in 1 particular circumstance. Perhaps that is why you claim that your pickups are the best in the world. Maybe they just sound best in the test environment that you created. Perhaps mine sound better in the test environment that I created.

[mick]

I try to rely on my customers feedback more than i do my own thoughts of my own pickups , to me it's the customer who is the guy who matters most and if he likes them great , if not he gets a different one or a refund , it's only happened once in the last 100 pickups or so ( and no I'm not bragging , it's just a comment ), maybe some were too polite to tell me to jam it up my arse ? but I do push the fact that I want happy customers and they must let me know if not happy so it can be rectified to THEIR satisfaction ... but on the whole if your customers are happy I think you are on the right track , doesn't matter what everybody else is doing ( stick to your own way , method , whatever and believe in what you are doing), doesn't matter how you get your sales ( (unless you do it dishonestly ),. but customer service is what matters most , even if they hate your pickups but you do the right thing at least you are worthy of mention , and lets face it the music industry can be full of snakes... just my 2C

Mick

[pupoholic]

holy crap... how things get shoved out of contex, cord,,,
first off i said it would be a waste of time that none of us have anyways .. and went on to explain what a useless test it would be... secondly i have never said my pickups were anything let alone make such an egotistical remark as the best in the world.... others say that about them.. i should but i don't.. i let the things speak for themselfs.. they don't need my help or should anyones pups need the authors help if there good..

.

[corduroyew]

I wasn't about whether or not shootouts are worthwhile. I just question your criteria for the "perfect shootout." You made a list of things that were important in the perfect shootout and I asked you why they were important and then I told you why I thought they made in impossible to discover a pickups true potential. What is wrong with that?

I have never played your pickups, and I am not saying anything about their quality. I wouldn’t pretend to know. I have read your website and if I could have sworn you said your pickups were “the best in the world” but perhaps I’m getting you confused with someone else.

[madialex]

I have read your website and if I could have sworn you said your pickups were “the best in the world” but perhaps I’m getting you confused with someone else.

I too have read this on his site, maybe i'm taking it out of context, as well, if so, my appologies.

[mick]

We Make "The Worlds Best Vintage tone -- New Old Stock Pickups" And We also offer PICKUP REWINDING & Vintage Pickup Restoration Services. All 100% Hand made using our 1951-1964 special historically correct and over the top "Rosie Wrap" hand wind pattern, this was the best sounding wind pattern of that intire era. Our attention to every detail has put us in a league all by ourselves. Every one of our customers have trully been 100% (over the top) satisfied!!!, and they are a real testament to us being able to "truly and honestly" duplicate/ clone the very-very best of real 50's “Vintage Tone Era”

Is this what you mean?

Mick

[pupoholic]

i'm sorry, i was wrong,
it does say that...

it may rub the other makers the wrong way.. but you guys don't buy my pups and the players who have -- would all agree with the statment -- because their the reason its there on my web site in the first place.. my customers are old with 30 year historys of buying so-called vintage pups... and have tried it all.. so did i prior to winding my own... these pups are being used and or compaired with real vintage guitars constantly and there holding up.. impressing the customers even more...

you guys make pups its your job to shoot the guy with the bigger target on his back... while this is not war.. the tatics are very much the same..

put the rifles down and do yourselfs a favor, just do what you do the very best you can and never spread yourself thin... find that nitch like many here have and success or "worlds best" at what you do will come...

i'm in the states so i know,
Wolfe
Lollar
and SD Designs here at pupmakers have reached --wordly cult status..

in the UK Shed seems to have the status too.. there may be more here -- sorry if i missed yas..

the reasons for it are clear to me, they followed their heart and they consitrated on their sound and nitch.. they did not get their copying the current leader.. they all chose their own path and marched to that different drummer...

my calling was dead nuts vintage or die trying.. i don't make anything moderen or new... i set out to nail vintage tone to the bone,,, i got lucky what else can i say except luck runs your way if you stay on the path..

peace please
don

[madialex]

i'm sorry, i was wrong,
it does say that...

it may rub the other makers the wrong way.. but you guys don't buy my pups and the players who have -- would all agree with the statment -- because their the reason its there on my web site in the first place.. my customers are old with 30 year historys of buying so-called vintage pups... and have tried it all.. so did i prior to winding my own... these pups are being used and or compaired with real vintage guitars constantly and there holding up.. impressing the customers even more...

you guys make pups its your job to shoot the guy with the bigger target on his back... while this is not war.. the tatics are very much the same..

put the rifles down and do yourselfs a favor, just do what you do the very best you can and never spread yourself thin... find that nitch like many here have and success or "worlds best" at what you do will come...

i'm in the states so i know,
Wolfe
Lollar
and SD Designs here at pupmakers have reached --wordly cult status..

in the UK Shed seems to have the status too.. there may be more here -- sorry if i missed yas..

the reasons for it are clear to me, they followed their heart and they consitrated on their sound and nitch.. they did not get their copying the current leader.. they all chose their own path and marched to that different drummer...

my calling was dead nuts vintage or die trying.. i don't make anything moderen or new... i set out to nail vintage tone to the bone,,, i got lucky what else can i say except luck runs your way if you stay on the path..

peace please
don

Good luck to all in their efforts is what I say

[ken]

No conspiracy theories here, although I have actually seen that exact sort of thing happen in other places to other people (really - at a chili, BBQ and beer tasting!) myself. However, I seem to remember people from 'other makers' here or at the old forum from time to time. Besides, my tin hat hasn't come back from the cleaners yet.

The ultimate shootout is already happening, and it's called the marketplace. My pickups are selling very well indeed, and according to my email inbox the nationwide buzz is steadily growing. I may be under the radar right now, but I want it that way because I am using my time finetuning my own recipes, building machinery and prototyping new models. As for using someone else's parts in a shootout... I don't think so. You wouldn't catch Fender and Duncan using each other's parts, would you? I am a machinist in 'real life' so I machine my own parts from stock, I don't buy them. Sorry.

In the end, talk is cheap. Anyone can join groups and 'create buzz'.

Ken

[NightWinder]

Ouch.......

[ken]

Heartfelt Apologies

I wish to apologize to anyone who may have been offended by my posts of late.

I am just one of many pickup makers here, and I am no better than anyone else.
Let's just say one of my 'nerves' got hit and I reacted.

For those who are unhappy with me, I'm sorry. I really am.

Ken