Gibson Pickup-Need Help Identifying

[JGundry]

FWIW I have a T-Top in my shop with a pat sticker and brass phillips screws. I also have a Pat. # pickup with P.A.F. butyrate bobbins and a white start lead coming out the bottom hole of the bobbin, and it reads 9.4K. It is all P.A.F. spec. ecept for the sticker and the white start lead. Prior to T-tops there is a very long transitional period away from P.A.F. specs.. T-Tops are all poly wire and all wound on the same machines set up for stacked bobbins. Gibson did use the same winding machine model set up for stacked bobbins for some P.A.F.'s. that was used for T-Tops. But these are not as abundant as the Leesona 102 wound P.A.F.'s. But by the time T-Tops rolled around Gibson had purchased several of the same machine (not the Leesona 102) all set up to run 6 stacked bobbins at a time. Couple that with poly wire and external start and finish leads and you have a much more efficient winding method than was done for P.A.F.'s. One confusing detail of T-Top winding is the traverse was not gear driven but instead driven by a method in which machine wear made the traverse vary from machine to machine. As a result I have seen T-Tops that vary as 18 TPL between bobbins. Bobbins on these machines are also often very loosely wound making counting the TPL even trickier.

[big_teee]

So what is it?
With the L marks 7.9k DCR, slotted screws, Pat. # Sticker, and plated cover.
What is the consensus on the Pickup in Question.
So Far, it's been all over the MAP?
T

[David Schwab]

So what is it?
With the L marks 7.9k DCR, slotted screws, Pat. # Sticker, and plated cover.
What is the consensus on the Pickup in Question.
So Far, it's been all over the MAP?
T

Probably the only way to know for sure is to remove the cover. Then you would know if it's a T top. Otherwise it's a patent label pickup.

[big_teee]

Probably the only way to know for sure is to remove the cover. Then you would know if it's a T top. Otherwise it's a patent label pickup.

I agree.
It was fun listening to everyone speculate.
I'll probably see Guido the Store owner, tomorrow or Tues, I'll give him the report.
Thanks, Everyone.
T

[SkinnyWire]

IMO, all indicators point to a T-Top. Given the difference in value placed on T-Tops versus early patent sticker pickups, there are implications in terms of valuation that go along with calling it an early patent sticker (as in not a T-Top but not a PAF). It's probably safe to say that it's a '60s vintage Gibson, as you mention in your initial post. That said, without verifying what it is it wouldn't really be fair to cost it as an early patent sticker without knowing that for sure. Aside from pulling the cover, knowing the vintage of the instrument it came from would be helpful in trying to nail it down.

Either way, there's every possibility that it's a wonderful pickup. PAFs are not the be-all/end-all for great "classic" tone. In fact, countless classics were created with pickups such as these. Even T-Tops. Thanks for sharing. Good luck.

[Possum]

I've never seen a TTop in ten years that had phillips bobbin mount screws, except for the late 70's no name pickup did, but it wouldn't surprise me. Transition from PAF's to TTops took from '61 to '64 then a quite abrupt change in '65 happened you can hear and the bobbins changed to TTop mold, no more wire window. A good thing, because those wire windows killed every single PAF I've had in here from sweat damage, the '61 I couldn't unwind completely because sweat ate thru half the coil at the window. Taking covers off a bucker is sure death for old PAF's. Its definitely not an early Patent, its either TTop or later TTop or "no name" late 70's junk, but the heavy oxidation of nickel baseplate seems to point to earlier, plus the chrome cover you just never see on early Patents, at least I haven't and I've restored alot of those. Pop the cover, but use a razor blade and solder iron heat so you don't damage the cover and plate, if you're practiced at it no one can tell you were inside. The only thing thats not right about it is the reading you got off it doesn't jibe with early TTops or early Patents unless you were in an awful warm room or were handling the pickup in a heated room.... If it has ABS bobbins its not worth much at all, I have one in here now and its not even worth rewinding, but it does show that Gibson was messing around with trying to recapture the PAF design, before Shaw came along, his weren't much better. This particular one has the old 70's Gibson logo stamped on the bottom, but some of them didn't, hard to date when the no names happened, people try to pass them off as real PAF's on Ebay, ABS plastic is the tip off....

[David Schwab]

If it has ABS bobbins its not worth much at all...

That's not true. A couple of years ago I sold an 80s Shaw humbucker for $100. It might be worth thousands, but it's worth more than you might think to a lot of people who want old parts.

[Bill M]

I've never seen a TTop in ten years that had phillips bobbin mount screws, except for the late 70's no name pickup did, but it wouldn't surprise me. Transition from PAF's to TTops took from '61 to '64 then a quite abrupt change in '65 happened you can hear and the bobbins changed to TTop mold, no more wire window. A good thing, because those wire windows killed every single PAF I've had in here from sweat damage, the '61 I couldn't unwind completely because sweat ate thru half the coil at the window. Taking covers off a bucker is sure death for old PAF's. Its definitely not an early Patent, its either TTop or later TTop or "no name" late 70's junk, but the heavy oxidation of nickel baseplate seems to point to earlier, plus the chrome cover you just never see on early Patents, at least I haven't and I've restored alot of those. Pop the cover, but use a razor blade and solder iron heat so you don't damage the cover and plate, if you're practiced at it no one can tell you were inside. The only thing thats not right about it is the reading you got off it doesn't jibe with early TTops or early Patents unless you were in an awful warm room or were handling the pickup in a heated room.... If it has ABS bobbins its not worth much at all, I have one in here now and its not even worth rewinding, but it does show that Gibson was messing around with trying to recapture the PAF design, before Shaw came along, his weren't much better. This particular one has the old 70's Gibson logo stamped on the bottom, but some of them didn't, hard to date when the no names happened, people try to pass them off as real PAF's on Ebay, ABS plastic is the tip off....

Here Dave I'll show you your first with philips screws.Most of the sticker is gone, but you can still see a little piece of it, and the sticker outline. I removed this one from a 1966 sg custom. Are you exactly certain yours are from 1965 as I've seen lots of 1965, 67, 68 t-tops and in my 15 years of doing vintage rewinds I have never seen one with slot head screws from that era.

[Possum]

Yes they are all from '65, see photos.....
yours looks awful newish to me, the two sets in my pix, one was uncovered, the other covered with gold covers. The last photo is a version of the no name buckers, late 70's, I can't seem to get the last photo of the top of that one to post, will try in seperate post and see if it'll take it. It has ABS bobbins and PE.

[Possum]

OK, this is the top of no name bucker.
As far as phillips head screws go, its a no brainer there could be transitional parts from '64 spilling over into '65, I see Gibson doing that in all their pickups I've dissected, even finding P90 8 hole keepers in PAF's. I do think the pickup in question in this thread is a TTop, I've not seen slotted screws on early Patents, it could be but I doubt it. Compare the aging of the ones I took photos of with the one in question. Still I've not run into a high wind earlier TTop before, but I have seen on Ebay what probably was a higher wound early Patent. Like I said there are no solid rules for anything Gibson did. It'd be worth popping the cover off that one, because an early Patent is worth way more than a '65 TTop! The very last of the TTops in the late 70's did hit up around 8k BTW....

The bottom line for me, is if I saw the pickup asked about in this thread, on Ebay, would I pay $500+ for it, with the very slim chance of it being an early Patent with a chrome cover? No. Way too risky. I would pay $200 for it as a TTop....

[Possum]

I see there's one on Ebay like the one in this thread, claiming to be a '62-'63, risky buy.....
Vintage 1962 1963 Gibson Patent Sticker Number Humbucker Pickup like Paf | eBay

[LtKojak]

I see there's one on Ebay like the one in this thread,

I think it's the same p'up. Just look at the missing bits from the patent sticker and the picture with the multimeter...

[the great waldo]

It is the same pup Guidos store is mentioned in the post and the ebay ad.

Cheers

Andrew

I think it's the same p'up. Just look at the missing bits from the patent sticker and the picture with the multimeter...

[big_teee]

FYI.
We will never know anymore about this Pickup.
This Pickup, and some other Vintage items were stolen from a Dealer display table at the Ft. Worth/Dallas Vintage Guitar Show.
If you see this item hit the web, please let me know.
It is Identifiable by the PAF Sticker Age marks.
Thanks,
T