Magnets/ best, worst etc..

[big_teee]

I liked the Shea Magnets fine.
The dimensions of his rod magnets were always off some.
The magnets sounded good though.
Dennis at Addiction-FX, has some good products also.
Unless you are making extremely high end Pickups?
The US made magnets are not feasible for the most of us.
Unfortunately, it gets to be a crap shoot at times!
Good Luck,
B_T

[Possum]

I could never get any good sounding magnets out of Arnold, I still have 50 alnico 2 bar magnets of theirs that just sound freaking strange. Same with their strat size A5 rod magnets, they lack sparkle that real vintage alnico has. All of Shea's stuff is way closer to actual vintage magnets from all the suppliers I've bought from. Yes you'll have problems with Chinese, but with Shea he deals with them so you don't have to. I got 250 custom made A4 bar magnets and Shea went through one company to do rough cast. The guy tried 3 times and they all came out ridiculously over sized and unusable. But the sample sounded fantastic. Finally I gave up and he ground them down to perfect spec size and they are awesome magnets. In fact, they look like alot of later period bar mags that were rough cast and ground to size as well since these were individually cast one at a time. So now we know not to use that guy for unground rough cast and I'll buy them again. I have piles of vintage bucker magnets and they all have a very dry and bright tone to them, the ones before '61 don't charge very high, then the short ones came in and they charge up to much higher gauss levels. My bottom line is I buy from several sources, try the magnets in what I'm doing, try everything and just see which ones sound great. Alnico from different companies all sound different, so I have probably five batches of alnico 2 from different companies and none of them sound the same. The strat sets I did with Arnold magnets never sold well at all and am redoing them with Shea's products which really brought them into authenticity and liveliness, and right away they are selling again. Arnold was actually more difficult to deal with than the Chinese, they wouldn't answer emails for weeks at a time, way high prices etc. Flawlessy cut and polished, beveled rod magnets but wasted money in the long run. For "un-oriented" A5, it always sounds like alnico 2 ;-) I think that is another one of those Shaw theories that had little basis in reality. Sensmag sells their A5L which is great stuff, its a softer sounding A5, is noticelably less resistive to demagnetizing, which translates to more "sag." Shea can get their products if you request such.

[JGundry]

Unoriented A5 has a different BH curve than A2. It has the same loose feel as A2 but with more mids than A2. Clearly two different tones. I'm sure Shaw ran curves of vintage magnets to determine this. He told me the names of magnet makers he was familiar with when I spoke with him. T&S, Arnold and Permanent magnet all offer unoriented A5 with a history of selling it to pickup makers. Shea sent me two different unoriented A5 samples, none of them could be charged. I think there may be some Chinese magnet makers selling A2 as both unoriented A5 and A4. I am reluctant to buy any magnets that don't have a BH curve run of them. The three remaining US magnet makers will do that for you. They will also run curves of vintage magnets. Well worth it IMHO.

[LtKojak]

I think there may be some Chinese magnet makers selling A2 as both unoriented A5 and A4. I am reluctant to buy any magnets that don't have a BH curve run of them. The three remaining US magnet makers will do that for you. They will also run curves of vintage magnets. Well worth it IMHO.

Funny you said that, Jon. I have some leftover UOA5 mags from a batch I bought form Dennis some time ago and NONE of them sounds like UOA5 at all. A couple sound like degaussed A2 and the others like A3; NONE can take a higher charge than the one they actually have. They might be some wrongly marked mags, but it's very difficult to say as they're physically identical to the real UOA5s I bought.

I don't know why, but I'm getting many requests of UOA5 mags lately, and I just can't understand WHY. From all magnets, WHY UOA5s? WHY NOW?

The italian magnet maker I've been dealing with for the last six years or so don't do UOA5, so thank God for Dennis, as I can't move enough bars to justify to buy a bulk batch from any of the makers I know.

[Possum]

There is no single recipe for any of the alnicos. There's no way to tell if you have unoriented A5 because you can magnetize any of the non-oriented alnicos in any direction and A5 bar magnets also will magnetize perfectly along the length, try it. Your BH curve just happens to only be for whatever magnet you're buying, it could literally be anything, as long as you like it thats all that matters, is it really worth five bucks a shot???? I don't even think there is an "A2" sound, an "A5" sound, all the many varieties of magnets I've bought you could never say this one is this or that alnico just by listening. I have some A3 that charges up to 700 gauss and is quite bright! But it IS one company's version of A3. The non-oriented thing is another bogus marketing trick in my opinion both from magnet sellers and pickup makers. I get some customers ask me about it and they can't describe what it sounds like, why do they want it, because its a label someone thinks is special I guess ;-) SensMag's A5L, whatever the heck it is is a less harsh alnico 5 and its worth having because its very very similar to the A5 in '61-64' PAF/Early Patent mags. In the end its just a pleasing but bright magnet and I use them in models where they sound good. For me, there isn't one do-all, be-all magnet that works in every bucker design, some work better in the lower wound ones and some better in the hot ones. Shea's guys couldn't do un-oriented A5 probaby because there really isn't such a thing, it obviously doesn't work to use A5 materials and cast without a magnetic field being used, they wouldn't charge. I think some of the old magnets don't really fit any modern recipe or description too well, Shaw never presented any real proof and it was just a theory. I tried a couple of these claimed non-oriented A5 magnets and they didn't sound any better or worse than some alnico 2 I have, pretty much sounded the same to me, I couldn't see paying five bucks for a magnet that didn't sound any different than way cheaper A2. Shea can get Sensmag products if you request them, I got several boxes of the A5L, they are really worth a try. As for the "non-oriented" deal, no one ever heard of it until I read an interview with Shaw, then told Jon about it and we both went searching for someone to try making it, me and my big mouth probably started the whole stupid deal. I also hounded a bunch of the magnet sellers for rough cast and eventually word got around in China that Americans wanted burnt looking crude magnets and voila! Pretty funny. Some reliable stuff I've read said that PAF era long magnets tested closely to modern A2 and A4, and no other alnico's were found. A5 obviously came in '61, probably because the technology got better and they were able to make stronger smaller magnets.

[David King]

Is the Sensmag A5L available in rod form?

[JGundry]

Yep every magnet maker has a different take on every Alnico grade whether it be Chinese or USA made. Yes USA made is $4-$5 per magnet and 1000 to 2000 pieces per order. Per pickup I think the cost is more than reasonable. But the cost of overhead for an order like that is a huge pain so most don't even bother with a first USA made order. But I really like the variety of USA made tones and I just prefer to have the entire pickup USA made. Also I think Chinese made is less consistent batch to batch.

For unoriented A5 all USA magnet makers offer it. No myth about that, but you have to order it. I have only tried one flavor of unoriented A5. I have had Chinese A2 magnets that hold way more charge than my unoriented A5 magnets. But I like the tone of the unoriented A5 in the right pickup. When I get a chance I'm going to try another USA maker's unoriented A5 and it will probably sound a little different than what I have now. I like that variety of USA made and I like that the USA made stuff has a real and direct tonal connection to the vintage.

I was on the fence about A4 for a bit as Arnold seems to be the only USA maker that has a recent history making it. But I ran BH curves of 52' and 56' soap bar magnets and the results were the 52' magnets were A4 and the 56' magnets were A2 in the neck and A4 in the bridge. Tonally the Arnold A4 is a dead on match to the vintage A4 I have. A4 is considered an odd ball magnet now. The only BH curve reference I could get for A4 is dated 1946 but it is a clear match to the 52' and 56' curves I ran of vintage magnets.

[Possum]

The BH curve thing isn't an exact method. If I understand the concept correctly its a graphing of how a metal behaves against an opposing magnetic force or a quickly reversing magnetic force. Its like a measure of magnetic "sag." Maybe I got that wrong. The problem is that few magnets are identical. Vintage magnets had more mass than modern because they weren't skinny like modern ones are, so that would presumably alter your BH curve from magnet to magnet. You can get a real sense of any magnet's ability to resist demagnetizing just by pushing a ceramic magnet against it, this is how I degauss my magnets. It only works if you repel then put the ceramic back to attracting because most alnico's will recover against an opposing temporary force. You do this repeatedly til you get to the gauss down to what you want. You can actually feel which ones push back and resist demagnetizing vs. ones that lose their charge fast. Magnets like the A5L charge high but drop quickly against an opposing magnet, magnets that do this, which all vintage magnets do, sound softer. Chinese offer an immense variety of magnet tones, their technology is still a bit crude and thats a plus for me, you don't want the latest most high tech magnet making techniques if you're looking for vintage character.

The first mention that I ever found that started this whole "un-oriented" thing was in an article I found in 2003 that I think came from Vintage Guitar Magazine, called Keeping The Flame Alive, by Walter Carter. I've attached it but not sure it will work on the forum. I'll quote the only information that was printed in the article, THIS is where this craziness came from ;-) and sent me on a quest to find out what was real. It says Shaw was an engineer, from what I've understood he is a luthier not and engineer, even so, he was not a magnetics engineer. This work was done in the early 80's at a "lab." The results you get from a lab are only as good as the people and equipment who run it. Unless it was a magnetics specialty firm, the results they got are dubious. I think its more likely that some of the alnico mixes were closer to modern alnico 5 recipes and produced without orientation is all, the recipe wasn't a specific alnico. This could definitely result in a mythology that there was an unoriented A5, and I think thats what happened. None of the vintage PAF magnets in the ones I've restored held an A5 charge, except the last year of '61, nothing before that, and those were the shorter magnets, so really you should be buying short magnets for authenticity.

Shaw's magnets were alnico 2 but the smaller TTop dimensions except thicker, and not full width; not very good reverse engineering to make a small magnet when he said he had real PAF magnets in hand ;-) The bobbins aren't accurate either and are late TTop dimensions as well. So, the research work seems pretty shoddy, but those were old school days 30 years ago. If you like these magnets you're buying thats fine, but are they really worth five dollars ;-) Not to me, the A5L sounds like the five dollar magnets I've been sent from several guys and they're about a buck and a half.

Here's the quote from the article if the PDF doesn't attach, its an interesting article in general:

To replicate the magnets,
Shaw gathered up magnets from
original PAFs and sent them to a
lab to be analyzed. “Most were
Alnico 2's,” he said, “but some
were 5's. In the process of making
an Alnico 5, they stick a magnet in
a huge coil for orientation, but an
unoriented 5 sounds a lot like a 2.
They started with Alinco 2 and
then switched to Alnico 5.”
Shaw discovered that the
original magnets were a little
thicker than 1980 production magnets.
“Magnetic strength is largely
a function of the area of the polarized
face; increasing the face size
gives you more power,” he
explained. So he specified the
thicker magnet for the new PAF.

[JGundry]

Possum I guess I don't know what your point is. Unoriented A5 has been intentionally made for pickups in the USA prior to 2003. It sounds and feels similar to A2 but with better mids. This is exactly how I describe it to customers. It is a great variation on Alnico that has a great vintage tone and feel. Whether unoriented A5 in vintage P.A.F.'s was intentional or accidental seems unimportant.

I'm not an engineer but I know that I have gotten BH curves made of A5 rods so apparently the size does not matter. However like anything there is a tolerance and variation within that tolerance from batch to batch. But differences are still obvious between magnet grades, makers etc.....

[Possum]

You are describing exactly A5L. My point was I find this idea a little fishy because none of the magnet sellers I talked to ever heard of non-oriented alnico 5, not All Star, not Magnetic Hold, not any of the Chinese I talked to. Now it seems to be everywhere, hmmmmm.... ;-) These are magnet companies that have been in business for years and service much larger markets than pickup makers. I think what I'm trying to say is I don't trust salesmen ;-) A type of alnico no alnico company ever heard of is suddenly fairly common?

[JGundry]

A little fishy? Sorry I just don't get your line of thought. You seem to not have read that unoriented A5 was made by the US magnet makers prior to 2003. In fact of the three US magnet makers I ordered from two of them mentioned unoriented A5 to me first, totally beating me to the punch. It went something like this, could I have a quote for 1000 A5 bar magnets?........Sure, do you want oriented or unoriented A5? Maybe the fact that Chinese magnet makers did not make is an indicator of their lack of experience supplying pickup makers relative to US magnet makers?

Again I don't get your point. Unoriented A5 was in some P.A.F.'s. Who cares whether it was produced intentionally in the 50's or was a production accident. If you like it then use it.

[Possum]

I never had a US maker offer non-oriented A5, AllStar told me they never heard of such a thing and they've been around an awful long time. Rob told me it couldn't be made and told me they had no interest in doing something they'd never heard of. Arnold never offered it to me, I seem recall they had a problem making it when you asked them to. On the old Ampage forum no one ever discussed such a product and guys like Lollar have been making pickups alot longer than most of us. A5L fits the tonal description but they don't sell it as NOA. Earth Panda's regular A5 magnets were low energy and sounded about the same. If such a thing actually existed it was rare and there's no way you could even tell if you had one, what is the test for it? Shaw says in the article it sounds like A2. I actually have this '61 PAF in here with the first of the short A5 magnets, it charges up to around 600 gauss and sounds softer than an equivalent sized A5 bucker mag, A5L sounds very similar; but my Earth Panda A5 was also very soft sounding too. I have old stock of A2 magnets that Shea sold from about 6 years ago, and sounds like a soft A5, more than other A2 I have and charges up to 600. I've read as much literature on the history of alnico as I could find and anything called alnico 5 and when it came into being it was because it was high energy, different recipe and anisotropic, if its isotropic its not really alnico 5. All that aside, I do like A5L but only in one pickup I make, but I wouldn't pay $5 for them. Anyway, I am resistant to these stories that have no substantiation behind them, I like to keep things real. Show me some test how to determine if an A5 magnet is ISO or not, I have this magnet here for a couple more days before the pickup ships out so I can test it.....

[CRU JONES]

Some Ideas for testing and/or sorting magnets:

Measure Guass for field strength.

You can swipe the polished magnets with acid to see the crystal structure. ( I know, not relevant in this case)

To test coercivity, Fully charge, measure Guass, then do a controlled discharge and again measure Guass. The controlled discharge can be as simple as shorting the magnetic poles out on a chunk of Iron.

Permeability can be measured through inductance.

Electrical Conductivity can be measured through Impedance, spectrograph, a.c. resistance, and relative inductance drop of an ac field coil brought into proximity of a magnet.

For samples that I have had access to: UOA5 had similar permeability to A5. UOA5 had higher electrical conductivity. UOA5 had lower coercivity than A5. For very unscientific reasons I prefer UOA5, they just seem to sound better. UOA5 doesn't have near the permeability of any A2 I have measured. At any rate, I do envy you for having an old magnet like that

Cheers!
Ethan

[big_teee]

Some Ideas for testing and/or sorting magnets:

Measure Guass for field strength.

You can swipe the polished magnets with acid to see the crystal structure. ( I know, not relevant in this case)

To test coercivity, Fully charge, measure Guass, then do a controlled discharge and again measure Guass. The controlled discharge can be as simple as shorting the magnetic poles out on a chunk of Iron.

Permeability can be measured through inductance.

Electrical Conductivity can be measured through Impedance, spectrograph, a.c. resistance, and relative inductance drop of an ac field coil brought into proximity of a magnet.

For samples that I have had access to: UOA5 had similar permeability to A5. UOA5 had higher electrical conductivity. UOA5 had lower coercivity than A5. For very unscientific reasons I prefer UOA5, they just seem to sound better. UOA5 doesn't have near the permeability of any A2 I have measured. At any rate, I do envy you for having an old magnet like that

Cheers!
Ethan

I think some of these winders, give free rewinds for certain old Pickups.
They get to play with the P/Us for a while in return!
T

[JGundry]

I never had a US maker offer non-oriented A5, AllStar told me they never heard of such a thing and they've been around an awful long time. Rob told me it couldn't be made and told me they had no interest in doing something they'd never heard of. Arnold never offered it to me, I seem recall they had a problem making it when you asked them to..

Possum I really don't think you read what I wrote about this. I have found no unoriented A5 conspiracy. I only found that Permanent Magnet and T&S specifically asked me about it and Arnold said they could do it when I asked. I like the Arnold unoriented A5 and I'm eager to try the others. Also two of them just straight out said they had done unoriented A5 for guitar pickup makers.

I'm not really clear about what you mean as far as a softer A5. Personally I would not call unoriented A5 softer. I think unoriented A5 is harder sounding than A2 with a crisper attack. The short oriented A5 I got from T&S I might call softer or fatter than what people expect from A5.