Wire vendor

[big_teee]

in any given gauge, is elektrisola's SPN about the same build thickness as their PE?

I see no reason to pay for PE if the same size wire (and by that, I mean insulation build) in SPN is the same size.

remmington's price difference between the 2 (in 42awg) is $30 bucks a pound!

anyone know?

Yes, You are correct!
They start with the same exact wire.
Like you said wire & wire coating size does vary.
Theoretically, as long as the wire is a given size and the coating is a given thickness?
All things being equal they should sound very similar, (the Same).
To go further, If the wire O.D. is the same, and the wire is the same Ohms per 10 Feet, or per thousand feet.
You won't find two winders here to agree to that probably, but they should be pretty equal in sound.
What drives up the cost of PE is, It is only used by Pickup winders.
Also Some Vintage Winders try to pass on that PE, and HFV sounds better.
HFV is nearly as expensive.
It is still used some in transformers.
The other advantage to SPN, and HPN is it is solderable, and is very slick and easy to wind.
Also Polyurethane is more durable, and has a higher heat rating.
Good Luck,
B_T

[Mark Norwine]

The "sound" of formvar [for example] is based on the induction of the coils based on their physical size as a result of the thickness of the insulation of the winding. That part I get.

So a FV pu will sound different than a PE coil, all other factors held constant.

What I remain unsure of is this: is the OD (wire + insulation) of min-nom SPN the same as the OD (wire + insulation) of min-nom PE?

IOW, is PE the same insulation thickness as SPN? That's my question...

[big_teee]

The "sound" of formvar [for example] is based on the induction of the coils based on their physical size as a result of the thickness of the insulation of the winding. That part I get.

So a FV pu will sound different than a PE coil, all other factors held constant.

What I remain unsure of is this: is the OD (wire + insulation) of min-nom SPN the same as the OD (wire + insulation) of min-nom PE?

IOW, is PE the same insulation thickness as SPN? That's my question...

MWS has a good tool for looking at wire specs.
MWS Wire Industries - Magnet Wire Specifications
Put the variable in you want to see.
PN is Polyurethane Nylon 155 - NEMA MW80C
That is the wire that is usually sold as SPN or HPN.
T

[Mark Norwine]

cool chart...thanks.

It reassures me & gives me some reasonably decent hope that a pickup wound with SPN *should* sound pretty much the same as one wound with PE (at a lower cost...)

[Possum]

Nom/min is not a standard size, there is a wide tolerance for that spec. So I have asked MWS what size does their actual wire mic at and they send me the tolerance specs for that sizing, which basically is useless. Nom/min back when I started out, in PE, was usually around .0027" for 42 AWG wire. Then REA came along and it bounced around from .00255" all the way to about .0028" which was a real pisser because it was all called nom/min but made hugely different coils with tonal differences to a point where you couldn't standardize any pickup design. So, then Elektrisola became MWS's supplier and nom/min dropped radically in size compared to REA. At least now its consistent sizing. So, thats why I'm asking what does this SPN wire actually measure off the spool? .0029" is way too fat for anything I use.
Formvar and PE have different dielectric qualities I would think but you can't get that information anywhere, especially PE, its like some secret they won't tell. I also highly doubt that all bare wire suppliers have exact same tolerances, AWC for instance is really inconsistently sized, is it insulation thickness or is it bare wire variance? No way to really know that either without checking in a lab with laser measurement tools like Elektrisola uses.

If I want fatter nom/min sizes say in HF I'll order from Wirenetics, for smaller I'll buy from BAE or MWS, its all the same wire from Elektrisola, you just have to know what each supplier stocks.

[copperheadroads]

cool chart...thanks.

It reassures me & gives me some reasonably decent hope that a pickup wound with SPN *should* sound pretty much the same as one wound with PE (at a lower cost...)

Good luck finding spn with the same diameter of wire & insulation than the desired PE
I know one winder that has to get it custom made ,& even with the same specs ,PE has something in the insulation that when wound in a pup gives you less treble
That dont mean you cant wind a nice sounding pickup with SPN

[Possum]

The wire I'm getting now is consistent and great stuff, no problems at all, lets just hope they keep making it. The only consumers of plain enamel wire are pickup makers, otherwise it would disappear into history. I use SPN for TTops because thats what they used, but not for any other pickups.

[Mark Norwine]

Good luck finding spn with the same diameter of wire & insulation than the desired PE

ok...then how about we get right down the the real question:

"Is there a commercially-available, modern 42 wire offering that is the dimensional equivalent to 42PE?" If SPN is smaller, then is HPN close(r)?

I understand that tolerances are in play here, but still: what modern, economical offerings are dimensionally similar to PE?

If there aren't any, fine. Someone say so... But if there are, what are they?

It sucks paying $30-40 for an 8oz spool of PE when more-modern wire can be had for 1/3 the cost...

...even with the same specs ,PE has something in the insulation that when wound in a pup gives you less treble

I read somewhere on this forum where someone noted that "insulation doesn't have tone"....yet it seems that you're saying that it does.

The more I learn about pickup winding, the more I'm convinced I haven't learned nearly enough. Such is life, I suppose...

Still...it seems a small miracle that my pickups sound as good as they do! I suppose even a blind monkey gets a coconut once in a while...

[big_teee]

ok...then how about we get right down the the real question:

"Is there a commercially-available, modern 42 wire offering that is the dimensional equivalent to 42PE?" If SPN is smaller, then is HPN close(r)?

I understand that tolerances are in play here, but still: what modern, economical offerings are dimensionally similar to PE?

If there aren't any, fine. Someone say so... But if there are, what are they?

It sucks paying $30-40 for an 8oz spool of PE when more-modern wire can be had for 1/3 the cost...



I read somewhere on this forum where someone noted that "insulation doesn't have tone"....yet it seems that you're saying that it does.

The more I learn about pickup winding, the more I'm convinced I haven't learned nearly enough. Such is life, I suppose...

Still...it seems a small miracle that my pickups sound as good as they do! I suppose even a blind monkey gets a coconut once in a while...

I told you, you wouldn't get 2 of us to agree!
You want some SPN that is in the .0026-.00275 size range.
I would email remington and get them to check some spools for you.
If you are just starting out, don't know your level of winding?
You need some SPN anyway.
Also Remington has different weight spools.
Maybe you just want 5 lbs. or so.
Get them to check their inventory and see what they have.
The HPN is a replacement for HFV.
I use it for Strat Single coils and I really like the way it sounds.
I use SPN for Humbuckers.
Most of us started on SPN.
G.L.
T

[copperheadroads]

ok...then how about we get right down the the real question:

"Is there a commercially-available, modern 42 wire offering that is the dimensional equivalent to 42PE?" If SPN is smaller, then is HPN close(r)?

I understand that tolerances are in play here, but still: what modern, economical offerings are dimensionally similar to PE?

If there aren't any, fine. Someone say so... But if there are, what are they?

It sucks paying $30-40 for an 8oz spool of PE when more-modern wire can be had for 1/3 the cost...




I read somewhere on this forum where someone noted that "insulation doesn't have tone"....yet it seems that you're saying that it does.

The more I learn about pickup winding, the more I'm convinced I haven't learned nearly enough. Such is life, I suppose...

Still...it seems a small miracle that my pickups sound as good as they do! I suppose even a blind monkey gets a coconut once in a while...

Have you wound pickups using Spn & plain enamel ?. That's where you will get your answer

[big_teee]

Have you wound pickups using Spn & plain enamel ?. That's where you will get your answer

I agree with Copper! You will get your answer using both.
If you are just starting, and have no wire?
Start with the cheap stuff first, and then branch out from there.
Good Luck,
T

[Possum]

PE is more trebly than poly nylon, thats why its preferred for buckers. The only way to compare the two is to find both in the exact same diameters, but you won't be able to do that. MWS PE nom/min is about .00255" and I've not seen SPN in that diameter. HPN means HEAVY insulation so you're getting different capacitance but more insulation dielectric effects and fatter wire. PE winds differently, it doesn't slip over itself like poly nylon does, so PN you can wind much tighter coils and the wire stretches more easily. If you work with both for years you'll know the difference. Most wire resellers won't go measuring diameters on wire spools for you, MWS refuses to do that because they are big company and don't have time to find one spool for you, plus Elektrisola's wire is very consistent. BAE will measure spools on Ebay for you, Wirenetics seems to use broken micrometers, they'll tell you its one thing and send you something radically different, but haven't bought from them in a long time. The PN wire Remington sells is an awful good price but only if you like fat wire, the color worries me a little as I've not used that kind before and its the same color you see in the cheapest pickups from Korea and China. If they had some in .00265" range I'd buy it to try it for some things.....

[big_teee]

PE is more trebly than poly nylon, thats why its preferred for buckers. The only way to compare the two is to find both in the exact same diameters, but you won't be able to do that. MWS PE nom/min is about .00255" and I've not seen SPN in that diameter. HPN means HEAVY insulation so you're getting different capacitance but more insulation dielectric effects and fatter wire. PE winds differently, it doesn't slip over itself like poly nylon does, so PN you can wind much tighter coils and the wire stretches more easily. If you work with both for years you'll know the difference. Most wire resellers won't go measuring diameters on wire spools for you, MWS refuses to do that because they are big company and don't have time to find one spool for you, plus Elektrisola's wire is very consistent. BAE will measure spools on Ebay for you, Wirenetics seems to use broken micrometers, they'll tell you its one thing and send you something radically different, but haven't bought from them in a long time. The PN wire Remington sells is an awful good price but only if you like fat wire, the color worries me a little as I've not used that kind before and its the same color you see in the cheapest pickups from Korea and China. If they had some in .00265" range I'd buy it to try it for some things.....

You can get it in red or natural.
The wire I had them look at was I think .00265, or somewhere there close.
They will tell you what the diameter of wire in mm is on the end of the spool.
It is all a little different.
HPN is not larger wire.
The coating of the Polyurethane is thicker.
It could be more or less Ohms per foot than SPN.
I like the Natural it is easy to see and use.
So buy whatever you like.
I have made my best single coils yet with the HPN.
You won't know what they have available unless you ask them.
T

[copperheadroads]

That natural color wire looks similar to formvar when not in a well lite room ,i started winding a strat pickup when i realized it was not 42 gauge heavy formvar , it was a natural colored 44 gauge spn
....................I always wondered what a 14k strat pickup sounds like ...............& now i know

[Possum]

No, HPN is not larger wire but the outside diameter is larger so you use fewer turns for the same space and the coils are much larger, and capacitance due to thicker insulation is different, the effects of using it are quite different than single build. Single and heavy are not mutually interchangeable in coil design.