Faith-Based Electronics (IMO Addendum)

[salvarsan]

confirmation bias

[David Schwab]

You haven't tried this ;-) All caps were measured with an LCR Extech meter. Each cap was listened in about four rounds of to them in sucession, so each cap got listened to four seperate times in random orders over a couple hours; I'm pretty methodical and always want to rule out mistakes by doing repeated trials on anything. The Jensen is permanently soldered into my two demo Les Pauls and still sounds "loud." ;-) Remember, the Jensen was sent to me by a customer with all these claims for how good it was, which I found dubious at the time, well he was right. I recommend them to all my VL PAF customers and they too write me back saying how good these caps are. Try it.

You need to wire all the caps up to a rotary switch so you can sit and flick through them. Otherwise you are going by memory from the last cap you listened to.

If you really want to do the test the right way, have someone else wire up the order of the caps so you don't know which is which. That way you avoid conformation bias.

[David Schwab]

While on the subject of vinyl records, etc., read what the makers of the Distressor compressor have to say on the subject:

Besides offering a wide range of control and unique features, the Distressor offers a warm, vintage sound by using a custom designed gain control circuit. This "warmth" or vintage sound has become an important issue in the last 15 years, as the super clear and linear digital technology does very little (or nothing) to soften "harsh" sounds nor emphasize the bass frequencies in music sources. Older analog tape, vinyl records and tube equipment on the other hand, could not be prevented from coloring the sound, often to the frustration of recording engineers. However, many people have now realized that this coloring can be extremely pleasant and "musical".

DISTRESSOR Product Description

So here we see that they can quantify that sound and build it into an effect unit. It's not accurate tone, but is pleasing to people.

[Steve Conner]

I'm prepared to buy one of these $25 magic tone caps and record an ABX test against an orange drop. You will be able to download the files and try to hear the difference for yourself.

What sort of amp settings and riffs would you suggest?

Also the most likely tactic is to claim that some other deficiency in the equipment masked the difference between the capacitors, so in the interest of full disclosure:

'06 PRS McCarty equipped with Duncan Alnico 2 Pros (and the stock ceramic disc tone cap :-) )
Custom amp based on a Selmer Treble'n'Bass 50, with UOS Mullard tubes and Celestion Gold speaker (from before they moved to China)
Mics: SM57 x1, Rode NT5 x2, can borrow a couple of Neumanns.
Recorder: Focusrite Twin Trak Pro with 24/96 ADC board.

If the consensus is that this setup lacks "PAF-Nature" or whatever then I won't even bother. If you decide that it is acceptable, then you can't play the masking gambit later. :-)

[Mike Sulzer]

DISTRESSOR Product Description

So here we see that they can quantify that sound and build it into an effect unit. It's not accurate tone, but is pleasing to people.

Or so they claim. It is, after all, an ad. It is to their advantage to play up the "problem" and how well their product provides the "solution". If your interests are so inclined, it would be much more fun to figure out how to makes things sound better, not just the way they used to.

[Mike Sulzer]

I'm prepared to buy one of these $25 magic tone caps and record an ABX test against an orange drop....

What tone setting should one use to emphasize any differences? I think it is towards zero rather than 10, and then use enough distortion to put a significant level of harmonics in the range where the human hearing is mot sensitive, but so much as to cover up the original sound completely.

The performance of caps deteriorates as the voltage limit is approached. The magic cap is what it is, but you have a choice with the metalized plastic film, or whatever. If there is something to be heard, it would be with a cap with the lowest voltage rating. Comparing caps low and high ratings might be useful for background info.

[Possum]

Jeeesh, if I can't remember the tone from 3 seconds before switching the cap out, I'd check myself into an Alhzheimer's clinic for sure. The alligator leads are taped to the front of the guitar, you clip one in, you remove it clip another one in, quicker to do than to write this sentence ;-) My expectations were negative, I didn't expect there to be any difference, in fact that tone cap sat on my desk for months before I bothered to try it. Yes, the materials ARE different, I don't know of any other copper foil paper in oil capacitors out there. Their aluminum foil capacitors preceeded the manufacture of the copper foils and even those caused a stir in the audiophile community. I haven't tried the aluminum ones but have read that they aren't spectacular in guitars, they are also alot cheaper, so may try one eventually. I did read an interesting audiophile's comments on both, he did an experiment combing one copper foil with one aluminum foil and for his uses, said it was truly magic for his audio gear. You can read about them here:
Angela Instruments Online Catalog - Capacitors - Angela Paper in Oil
You can also buy direct from Jensen and get a better deal if you buy in quantity. For me, in my guitar, my pickups, my harness, my amp, my fingers, my ears, the .022uf copper foil in bridge only is the best tone cap I've ever heard for that use only. Way cheaper than a NOS Sprague pio and way better sounding. For neck uses I didn't like it, I'm thinking the aluminum one might be a good choice there, but for $3 a NOS Russian military grey bodies pio is a great choice. Not faith based ;-)

[Possum]

Getting BACK ON TOPIC ;-) ;-) ;-) Whatever happened to the abundantly used theory from my youth that if your TV wasn't working right, your amp made funny noises----you BEAT ON IT til it started working right? It actually worked 90% of the time, too ;-) I don't see anyone doing this these days, sad to see this loss of faith in the power of brutal force ............

[David Schwab]

Or so they claim. It is, after all, an ad. It is to their advantage to play up the "problem" and how well their product provides the "solution". If your interests are so inclined, it would be much more fun to figure out how to makes things sound better, not just the way they used to.

It's the most popular compressor in the world. I see no problem with digital compressors, but this is what people seem to like. The point is that it colors the tone. I'm not sure what problem they are playing up, but they were imitating the old Teletronix compressors and the like.

I do use different compressor plugins when recording, and the vintage models sound different. I don't always want that tone, but it's available when you want something that's going to alter the tone of the track.

[David Schwab]

What tone setting should one use to emphasize any differences? I think it is towards zero rather than 10...

Mike, do a search on YouTube for some of these dumb comparison tests of caps. People are claiming to hear a difference with the tone pot on 10. What you will notice in the tests is that there is no difference in tone, but there is, in large type, the kind of cap you are going to hear before you hear it.

[Ward]

Getting BACK ON TOPIC ;-) ;-) ;-) Whatever happened to the abundantly used theory from my youth that if your TV wasn't working right, your amp made funny noises----you BEAT ON IT til it started working right? It actually worked 90% of the time, too ;-) I don't see anyone doing this these days, sad to see this loss of faith in the power of brutal force ............

That's funny Dave, for most of my life I always "knew" that as a last resort ( or even first sometimes ) if I bashed whatever wasn't working right it would come good. Always worked with the old TVs. I haven't done this for ages and frankly had forgotten it lol.

[David Schwab]

Jeeesh, if I can't remember the tone from 3 seconds before switching the cap out, I'd check myself into an Alhzheimer's clinic for sure.

It has nothing to do with Alzheimer's. It's conformation bias. You can't remember what the last cap sounded like, AND you know which one you are using next.

Stop making excuses and wire up a rotary switch and then see what you hear.

That link at the Angela website tells nothing, except how special their cap is. If the role of a cap is to introduce capacitance into the circuit, what is theirs doing that makes it sound different when used in a guitar tone circuit?

[Possum]

Sorry but I can remember sound 3 seconds apart, plus I repeated the swaps many times, no bias towards one or the other, the Jensen stuck out and the "Jupiter Tone" sounded horrible, I had no expectations, I just listened. I have to do listening comparison tests a lot in my business, its an important skill.

Why would I make an experiment harder than it already is, lol ;-) Not to mention that a rotary switch throws a bunch of capacitance in there by itself, so that compromises the test right from the start, probably in a not good way; I sure wouldn't put one in a guitar. The simples circuit is always the best.

Yeah, back in the 60's I must have beat some of those old tweed dinky little Gibson amps half to death! TV's always worked better after a good beating ;-) Then transistors came along and we quickly found out if you beat them they died, poor little fluckers....

[Possum]

Wish the forum would get fixed, now I get "you have to wait 28 seconds to post again" when I didn't even post before ;-)

[rjb]

Wish the forum would get fixed, now I get "you have to wait 28 seconds to post again" when I didn't even post before ;-)

Try beating on it.
-rb