Whats under the covers?

[Stratz]

Hi all. I've built tons of single coils in my days but not nearly as many HB's so I find myself in need of some opinions/advice from builders that know Humbuckers.
The sound I've been aiming for are the Duncan Antiquity, Gibson Burstbucker neck pickups.

Take a listen to the video in this link for the BB and the Duncan)

They have that Strat like tone and chime to them that I cant seem to get too.
I've tried both newer and vintage #42 PE, different screw, slug, keeper alloys, different magnets, Gauss levels etc, and I'm not even close. The HB's I build usually sound closer to a '57 classic. Very sweet and articulate but not as Stratty as the BB and Antiquity.

So, would anybody be willing to share their expertise on this topic and help me get a little closer? I'm getting tired of wasting wire.
Thanks
Rob

[Ward]

What you describe is what I consider a good paf to sound like, I've never played one mind you but IMO you're looking for the grail tone in humbuckers and I for one have NO IDEA how to roll em up n I tell you now, no one is gonna tell you either. Come on heros, prove me wrong. Never gonna happen.

[Stratz]

What you describe is what I consider a good paf to sound

I agree Ward, it is a good tone to my ear but I'm sure there are many players that wouldn't want it for free.

I just cant bare to use the term P*F..... even the HB's that I build fall into that category. The term is so insanely over used and many times priced that way as well. I'm just trying to build a "humbucker" that sounds similar.

[Ward]

I hear you mate, I built a humbucker set using wood for the bobbins so I could make the coils taller to see if that would help. I posted pics and a clip of the result and I had absolutely no interest. I have read that if you hand wind you will never get there but then Dave Schwab reckons if you wind neat by hand you can but I have had no luck. Besides, IMO there are WAY better pickups to get that tone than hummers, you just have to put up with the hum. It's a black art lookin for the paf tone though it would seem and those that can do ain't tellin, fair enough. For me, P-90s have more tone than those Antiquities n Burstbuckers n such but again, the hum, it doesn't bother me, I love P-90s.

[Stratz]

It's a black art lookin for the paf tone though it would seem and those that can do ain't tellin

Well, since there's hundreds of different "PAF" tones, maybe someone could get lucky hand winding. I'm sure you've seen pictures of the different coil shapes of the late 50's-early 60's Gibson HB's. Looks like it was pretty much anything goes as long as it made sound back then.

I'll get very close to the clip I posted soon enough

[Ward]

Whatever it is I have no idea.

[LtKojak]

Hi all. I've built tons of single coils in my days but not nearly as many HB's so I find myself in need of some opinions/advice from builders that know Humbuckers.
The sound I've been aiming for are the Duncan Antiquity, Gibson Burstbucker neck pickups.

Take a listen to the video in this link for the BB and the Duncan)

They have that Strat like tone and chime to them that I cant seem to get too.
I've tried both newer and vintage #42 PE, different screw, slug, keeper alloys, different magnets, Gauss levels etc, and I'm not even close. The HB's I build usually sound closer to a '57 classic. Very sweet and articulate but not as Stratty as the BB and Antiquity.

So, would anybody be willing to share their expertise on this topic and help me get a little closer? I'm getting tired of wasting wire.
Thanks
Rob

Try this recipe: #42 AWG PE, nickelsilver baseplate, raw nickelsilver covers, 1018 slugs and keeper bar, 1022 polepiece screws, Mojotone butyrate bobbins, 117 TPL, 30-34 grams tension, little to no scatter, 4750 turns screw coil, 4875 turns slug coil, fully-charged A2 mag for vintage-y, UOA5 mag for fuller vintage-y and/or A4 mag for all-around.

Let me know how it went.

HTH,

[Stratz]

Thanks Lt. Kojack, I cant do much about the tension or the TPL with my setup so it will have to wait until the next time I visit my Father.

Rob.

[Possum]

If you're using stock commercial parts from the suppliers, you're just not going to get anything like Duncan does, though Duncan doesn't make an authentic PAF nor does Gibson (nor does anyone). The alloys they use are unbelievable. The commercial bobbins are nothing like Duncans, nothing like PAF's either. PAF's and Duncans and Gibson's are all machine wound, you can't do by hand what a machine does, its just not gonna happen, and where it shows up the most is in the neck. For years I tried to get a real clear sounding P90 by hand winding and never could until I started machine winding. In fact the first coil I wound on my machine was a P90 and the increase in clarity was amazing. Probably the closest you can get is by winding a real low power version a little over 6K, with the brightest alnico 5 you can find.

[big_teee]

If you're using stock commercial parts from the suppliers, you're just not going to get anything like Duncan does, though Duncan doesn't make an authentic PAF nor does Gibson (nor does anyone). The alloys they use are unbelievable. The commercial bobbins are nothing like Duncans, nothing like PAF's either. PAF's and Duncans and Gibson's are all machine wound, you can't do by hand what a machine does, its just not gonna happen, and where it shows up the most is in the neck. For years I tried to get a real clear sounding P90 by hand winding and never could until I started machine winding. In fact the first coil I wound on my machine was a P90 and the increase in clarity was amazing. Probably the closest you can get is by winding a real low power version a little over 6K, with the brightest alnico 5 you can find.

That's confusing!
Wasn't the PAF shootout won by a winder using store bought parts?
T

[Ward]

That's confusing!
Wasn't the PAF shootout won by a winder using store bought parts?
T

It's more than confusing IMO. Black art from hell.

[LtKojak]

That's confusing!
Wasn't the PAF shootout won by a winder using store bought parts?
T

That's NOT confusing.

It just shows you that there's more than one way to skin a cat, and that good tone is good tone, no matter HOW's done, stock over-the-shelf parts or custom made to spec.

The "Last PAF shootout" was NOT a contest, BTW. There where no winners or losers, just different products shown under the same setup. People voted their favorite sounding ones, and the first two most voted, RD-59s by Bill Megela of Electric City Pickups and OTPGs, both had very similar specs and ground tone. Bill's are machine wound (I think?) and OTPGs are handwound.

See?

PS: for the record: most people were voting what they've believed they were the OTPGs, just because they're the most hyped...

[Ward]

Try this recipe: #42 AWG PE, nickelsilver baseplate, raw nickelsilver covers, 1018 slugs and keeper bar, 1022 polepiece screws, Mojotone butyrate bobbins, 117 TPL, 30-34 grams tension, little to no scatter, 4750 turns screw coil, 4875 turns slug coil, fully-charged A2 mag for vintage-y, UOA5 mag for fuller vintage-y and/or A4 mag for all-around.

Let me know how it went.

HTH,

Koj, I've got everything you mention in your recipe except the butyrate bobbins, how would you tweek this recipe for 53mm bobbins and would the mojo 53mm bobbins be OK? Cheers.

[LtKojak]

Koj, I've got everything you mention in your recipe except the butyrate bobbins, how would you tweek this recipe for 53mm bobbins and would the mojo 53mm bobbins be OK? Cheers.

I haven't done any 53mm bobbins, ever. The recipe I've posted was for a neck p'up.

Anyway, without changing the basic recipe, just use your 53mm bobbins and give a 12,5% more turns and take it from there. Plus, add an A8 mag to the mix.

HTH,

[Possum]

The results of those shootouts that include a REAL PAF SET, are always the same. The real PAF's never score at the top because very few have ever played or heard a real set in person, so they can't identify them and don't know what real ones sound like. The pickups that score highest in general humbucker comparisons are usually darker sounding pickups and most often hand wound. PAF's aren't dark pickups, nor were they ever hand wound. I did such a test myself on the MLP years ago, posted some prototype audio clips in my PAF research and without telling anyone I also posted sound clips of my real PAF set. Very few liked the real PAF's and only one guy, who also happens to know alot about and plays real PAF's identified them.