hand winders or cnc winder

[RedHouse]

...but then closed minded players don't want that, because they want to use the same five guitar tones as everyone else has been using the last 40 years.

Yeah, and it seems to particular to guitar players.

That's the one saving grace about many of the young/new players, the majority are going after a new sound, not the same-ol-same-old

IMHO bass players are soooo much more willing to find a pickup that suits their style, instrument, and rig.

...you're right, the weird stuff, only the guys who really can't play very well will buy...

And that is also very true for the PAF customers/crowd, so many trying to "buy" their stairway to heaven.
(instead of playing better)

I hate to jump into a high level discussion such as this. It is like elephants mating. Everything is done at a high level, and with a lot of accompanying noise...

Wow, and just how would you know what Elephans mating sound like? you into some weird wild-kingdom porn or what?


(just kidding)

...it is not as easy as has been stated for new pickup winders to just jump in and take over the market. It is a lot harder than that. From my experience, existing reputations weigh in a lot heavier with most customers than pure quality, originality, and tone. I have tried it. Anyway, just my 2 cents on it.

Well yes-and-no IMHO.

For instance, although in my region we have some heavyweight's (Jason, Wolfe) I still used to get a fair bit of business from the local music stores, which has dropped off in the past 2 years.

So I went 'round to press-the-flesh a bit and found that several of them having heared all the churn about pickup winding have bought their own winders and are having the "guy in back" do their own winding.

While that in itself isn't a huge take-over of "the business", it certainly is re-routing the customer flow, which isn't helping things for the small shop (like me).

[JGundry]

Yeah thats all true, but there is room at the top. There's lots of guys claiming they make vintage repro stuff, but most of it is just the same old parts everyone uses, so there's tons of really unremarkable work out there.

Explain how you don't fall into this category yourself? If you are going to make claims like this at the expense of your competitors you have to back it up. Self made or run Keeper bars, slugs and screws, Mojotone butyrate bobbins, TV Jones covers, Japanese made Hosco/Allparts baseplates and Chinese Alnico magnets sounds like the assembly of 99% of the people claiming to make a P.A.F. repro. When a guy like you is using just as many off the shelf and overseas made parts as the majority of your competitors, where do you get off claiming you are in the top tier of P.A.F. repro makers from a parts standpoint? I don't get it?

Just for the record ThroBak makes all our own parts, in the USA, including custom run USA made Alnico. I do it because I get what I feel are the most vintage accurate specs.. And I think when customers see the ThroBak material specs. combined with ThroBak's vintage accurate winding capabilities many see it is as big plus. I'm clearly unique in the P.A.F. repro market and I'm proud of that. If competitors are using off the shelf parts that is totally fine in my book, I used to also. But makers that make all their own parts is a very small club, don't claim your in that club unless you have paid your dues. BTW the dues ain't cheap.

[RedHouse]

Explain how you don't fall into this category yourself? Self made or run Keeper bars, slugs and screws, Mojotone butyrate bobbins, TV Jones covers, Japanese made Hosco/Allparts baseplates and Chinese Alnico magnets sounds like the assembly of 99% of the people claiming to make a P.A.F. repro. When a guy like you is using just as many off the shelf and overseas made parts as the majority of your competitors, where do you get off claiming you are in the top tier of P.A.F. repro makers from a parts standpoint? I don't get it?

Just for the record ThroBak makes all our own parts, in the USA, including custom run USA made Alnico. I do it because I get what I feel are the most vintage accurate specs.. And I think when customers see the ThroBak material specs. combined with ThroBak's vintage accurate winding capabilities I'm clearly unique in the P.A.F. repro market and I'm proud of that. If competitors are using off the shelf parts that is totally fine in my book, I used to also. But makers that make all their own parts is a very small club, don't claim your in that club unless you have paid your dues. BTW the dues ain't cheap.

It's too bad you don't sell your parts to (us) other makers.

Ever since the economic funk hit in '08 I've been trying to opt for US made resources in my stuff, but the minimum buy-in is often too steep.
(could sell with a non-comp?)

[JGundry]

It's too bad you don't sell your parts to (us) other makers.

Ever since the economic funk hit in '08 I've been trying to opt for US made resources in my stuff, but the minimum buy-in is often too steep.
(could sell with a non-comp?)

I considered this. But I think it would be a hassle to fill parts orders and frankly not real profitable. I think parts sellers make money on sheer volume of parts sold. Offer 20,000 different little parts and you have a good business. Offer 12 specialty parts for sale when you really are a pickup and effect pedal maker, then parts orders are probably more of a hassle to deal with than a money maker.

Years ago I custom ordered screws and sold some to Possum and another maker. Never again, for multiple reasons. I have a couple of parts I shared cost on with another maker that is really not a competitor and that works fine. But beyond that one exception I just don't see the benefit.

If you want top make your own parts in the USA you need to shop around. Some places have insanely high minimums for parts. Some extremely low minimums. The variation is shocking. It really is important to find a place you can work with on the specs.. Some places won't even quote it when they see the kind of detail you want and that you don't want to buy a minimum of 20,000 baseplates per run. Other smaller shops will get it and see the detail you want as a way to show that they have the chops to make a great part. There are a lot of true craftsmen in the USA that made tools for industry for decades that now are struggling.

[RedHouse]

Not so much in my area, most machine shops (and fab shops) are doing Boeing contracts or sub'ing for Genie, they don't even want to see what I want unless we're talking a major order. They've had it good for a long time and don't even remember when they were small or first starting out.

[Possum]

Jon, you just don't get it at all. I wouldn't buy your parts if you did sell them, they wouldn't give me the results I am getting. I put my time into research, not ads. Your understanding of my work is rivals your understanding of real PAF's, and you make assumptions about my work without a clue. Why you follow me around and make a point of posting on every thread I initiate or contribute to anywhere on the web seems rather odd and paranoid, why do you feel a need to promote your pickups on threads about other maker's pickups? You have a captive audience on the LPF and I'm not able to respond to your cracks about my work there. I put in alot of hours into each set I make, you might want to think about that. My YouTube demo's are side by side with real vintage PAF's, thats where the rubber meets the road, no gimmicks no hype, my work is there for everyone to judge up against real vintage pickups. I haven't had a bad review or unhappy customer in about 7 years now. I have a 9 month waiting line and and can't keep up with demand. I started this work prior to your arrival. You seem to forget my first steel analysis test that I invited you to share in. I've gone way beyond that level of research. You fill a market need, be happy with that, I have my niche thats out of your reach because of the way you think and how you make things. You should be happy with what you've achieved put your energy into improving your product instead of harassing other makers. I'm sorry but I do have to respond to your comments when you show up in threads where I am discussing things, and tell people that my experience with my work and research is very different from what you are promoting. Sorry if that is threatening to you, but you are the one that shows up anywhere I post, take responsibility for that; if you don't like what I say, don't show up, and I mean that in a friendly manner, OK? I am really tired of clashing with you, but you bring it on yourself.

Brad, you're right about the general PAF market, for one thing few of them actually know what a PAF really is. They've been brainwashed to think its a really fat warm pickup because they are listening to old records that are a studio engineer's work. Half of what I do is educating them to what is real. And yeah, alot of them can't play very well, but then there are those who DO. I am lucky to have a couple celebrity players as friends and customers, who are PAF fans and know them way better than the general player does. One of them was part of the classic rock revolution, owned a '59 Les Paul, knew all the other heroes of that time in the UK, and is on many famous albums. That kind of validation feels pretty good and they immediately feel at home with my work and understand my motives and what I do. So, that makes it worth while. Its also a good feeling to give any player something thats nearly identical to vintage pickups that are going back up in price on Ebay, now. Saw a 59 PAF set double white, on Ebay for $15,000 yesterday. BTW your CNC stuff is right on, good job there.

[JGundry]

Dave, I don't think you addressed my question at all about how you square your comments about other makers and parts. I'm not the one ranking other makers work negatively. AFAIK you are making good humbuckers. I just don't get your need to rank other makers? I'm not the only one to notice this.

I only ever comment on threads when I see something that I think needs correction based upon my experience with vintage pickups in general, parts manufacturing or wrong information about my products. And when I do I keep it as short as possible and try to post useful information. If I don't do this then I end up with a bunch of emails to answer asking about the wrong info..

[Bill M]

Thank You Jon. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Dave, Jon is correct, you need to stop taking these cheap shots at all the other winders as there is no need for it. I understand you are trying to market your business like the rest of us and I feel we can all go about that without slandering each other. When customers ask me about another winders products,and I have no experience with them, I say I have never heard their pickups before, but I hear a lot of people like them and that the winder is a straight shooter, etc. I never, ever, say negative things as people know what they are going to choose and I have made a lot sales from this perspective. I do have great respect for you, Jon and all the other winders on here making the electric guitar sound better every day one pickup set at a time. From time to time I work with other winders to have buying power when needed and that is an asset.

[David Schwab]

I have a 9 month waiting line and and can't keep up with demand.

Guess it's time to wind more than one coil at a time, huh?

[RedHouse]

...Dave, Jon is correct, you need to stop taking these cheap shots at all the other winders ...

Well said.

There are some people in this world strive to make themselves better by trying to bring others down, it's their way of evening the playing field.

[Bill M]

Well said.

There are some people in this world strive to make themselves better by trying to bring others down, it's their way of evening the playing field.

I know Brad, but it doesn't have to be that way. Competition is fine and the customers are going to choose who they want to buy from anyway. This does not have to be a cut throat business.

[RedHouse]

I know Brad, but it doesn't have to be that way. Competition is fine and the customers are going to choose who they want to buy from anyway. This does not have to be a cut throat business.

I agree totally.

Even better, I have no problem with gathering with my competetive-peers. I did that for some years as a network technician, just wish (more) pickup technicians would "rise above". Life is too short, here today, gone tomorrow (and I don't mean "out of businesss").

I live in the Pacific NW, there are quite a few winders in the tri-state area, would be nice if we could get together for a beer and a bbq.
(won't happen, too much animosity/angst going on, apparently)

"make it real, or forget about it..." MB20

[Bill M]

I agree totally.

Even better, I have no problem with gathering with my competetive-peers. I did that for some years as a network technician, just wish (more) pickup technicians would "rise above". Life is too short, here today, gone tomorrow (and I don't mean "out of businesss").

I live in the Pacific NW, there are quite a few winders in the tri-state area, would be nice if we could get together for a beer and a bbq.
(won't happen, too much animosity/angst going on, apparently)

"make it real, or forget about it..." MB20

I have a great working relationship and also friendship with some of my fellow winders. MHD pickups will be helping me run my booth in Philly next month.

[Possum]

Jon's problem is that he can't deal with competition. He's told his captive LPF audience that I only assemble pre-designed parts. I have no voice there, so he actively discredits my work for his own gain behind my back. The truth is beyond his comprehension and is highly threatened by what I'm doing, so he feels the need to promote his work on every thread I either start or contribute to. I started a thread on the MLP called "PAF reality check" that he completely destroyed by his self promotion. I started the thread to educate players about what vintage PAF's actually are since so few have played one. I did not put any information or videos of my own work there, just YouTube videos of real vintage guitars with PAF's in them, now and from classic era years. Jon posted videos of his own work, and eventually destroyed the thread and turned it into a free-for-all promotional thread for a bunch of winders looking to get attention. Shame on all those who killed that thread. But this is typical, Jon shows up on almost every post I make anywhere on the web, he actively searches for anything I post, phishing? If you want to keep doing it fine, but be prepared that I will stand my ground and prove my point that what I am doing and that my research points to very very different conclusions than you've come to.

I didn't hire out my reverse-engineering efforts, nor took anyone else's word from some company looking to take my money. That's what Gibson did, look how far they got.....I did the work myself, and had volunteer help from very high sources. My work speaks for itself, go to YouTube and watch what my research and hard work has produced. The pickups of all kinds that I make are just done quite different than what anyone else is doing, everyone seems threatened by that, but again the work speaks for itself. If you want to drag these posts out and take more pot shots at me fine, I don't really care, I'm used to it, lurkers who read these attacks don't side with the attackers. Jon again has turned a thread about CNC winding into a promotion for his work and trying to drag my work down to his level of understanding. Same old thing, better to turn your energy into improving products than trying to understand someone else's work....

[JGundry]

Jon's problem is that he can't deal with competition.

Um, Dave, I have no problem with competition. You can read up on psychological projection if you follow this useful link Psychological projection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. I think that is what is really going on in your previous post.

You have quite a laundry list of negative intentions you attribute to me and they have no merit and I think it is pretty clear to anyone reading it that it is out of bounds. You might want to think about it a bit then do some editing. Otherwise people will recognize your post as the gratuitous trollish nastiness that it is.

I do support forums I frequent, like this forum where I'm a supporting member, and The Gear Page and the Les Paul forum and My Les Paul forum and the Metro Amp Forum. I figure if I like the forum I should support it. And if the forum has an advertising program I like then I pay for that as well. It is what businesses do. You have a marketing background and I'm sure you know the value of paid and unpaid advertising. I don't mind that you tag every youtube video you do with ThroBak pickups. It makes total sense from a free advertising standpoint. Youtube tags, frequent forum posts... are all totally legitimate ways you and most pickup makers advertise online. As I said earlier I almost always post on threads when I need to correct a misrepresentation as it relates to my business or if I feel I have expertise to add to the topic.. But I always try to add to the topic at hand. Everyone does that.

If you don't want me or anyone else responding to any of your forum posts this is what you need to do. First do not post inaccurate information about competitors products. Secondly, don't rate competitors products negatively. Thirdly do not make false claims about your product or a competitors. Also do not expect to be the only valid opinion on the internet. Expect experts in the field to add their expertise to any pertinent topic.

BTW I never discredit your work on forums. When people want to know what small makers have all in house made P.A.F. replicas I mention ThroBak, Holmes, BK, OTP and Sheptone minus the cover. This may sound like ranking but it is really just defining the category when asked. It is not my mission to define this category (although I feel really good about being in it). I'm also happy to be corrected if I missed anyone. I don't include you in that list because you don't make any parts that require hard tooling like bobbins, baseplates or covers. If you do have hard tooling for these parts now let me know. But let's be clear, this is not discrediting your work. Those are your words not mine. What I see online from your customers indicates you make great humbuckers. I'm not disputing those claims.