hand winders or cnc winder

[Possum]

I'm not "avoiding" multiple coils, I don't like mass produced stuff is all. I could do multiples pretty easily if I wanted to, I have a tailstock so its pretty simple to line a couple of bobbins up. Its not about "consistency," its more about each coil being exactly what I want it to be, too hard to watch more than one coil at a time, the way I do things. I am super fussy about what I make, speed is not a goal, quantity is not a goal....

[RedHouse]

Whatever floats-yer-boat.

[David Schwab]

I'm not "avoiding" multiple coils, I don't like mass produced stuff is all. I could do multiples pretty easily if I wanted to, I have a tailstock so its pretty simple to line a couple of bobbins up. Its not about "consistency," its more about each coil being exactly what I want it to be, too hard to watch more than one coil at a time, the way I do things. I am super fussy about what I make, speed is not a goal, quantity is not a goal....

You just want to make less money per hour, right?

[RedHouse]

I'm not "avoiding" multiple coils, I don't like mass produced stuff is all. I could do multiples pretty easily if I wanted to, I have a tailstock so its pretty simple to line a couple of bobbins up. Its not about "consistency," its more about each coil being exactly what I want it to be, too hard to watch more than one coil at a time, the way I do things. I am super fussy about what I make, speed is not a goal, quantity is not a goal....

That might just be the silliest thing you've posted (lately) Possum.

Winding more than one bobbin at a time isn't "mass production", it's "replication".

You're talking here about getting coils "just right" but so then if/when you get one just right, you have no desire to reproduce that? (an actual reproduction) in other coils? (wtf) how's your mind is equating "replication" to "mass production"?

You (say) you're getting you particular PAF wind just right (better than the machines that made PAF's, cough, cough) but yet consistancy isn't a goal? no, you want each coil to be something other than a replica of that "just right" coil?.

... I'm always futzing with tension and adjustments to make sure I don't wind lop sided coils. I'd rather do one good set of pickups than six that are just OK, but thats me.

Whatever you say buddy, you're on your own with that. Most folks would want to make one good pickup, then make more good pickups, and have them all be consistant. Most customers would want that too IMHO, YMMV.
(with all due respect, of course)

[Possum]

My work is extremely consistent, and no I have no interest in mass producing "good" pickups. My only interest is in producing relatively few exceptional pickups, and no, I am not money driven. I'm not a businessman, this is not a business for me, its a technical art and like any artist I am always pushing the envelope to see what level of excellence I can achieve. Your goals may be otherwise, fine. I have customers who own five or six sets of the same PAF set I make, if they weren't consistent I'd hear about it ;-) Consistency is high on my list of QC protocols, actually.....

[Possum]

Getting back on track, one can easily learn how CNC works, there are hobby kits that teach you all the fundamentals and include all the hardware to hook up to any serial port PC. Once you can rig up a simple build, you can configure it any way you want. The only thing I wanted to be able to do was move a wire guide back and forth, it really didn't interest me to synch a winding motor with the wire guide, so I kept it simple on purpose. I researched all the cheaper CNC industrial winding machines including the Adams Maxwell traverse, and I saw alot of limitations in that stuff because they're not geared for making guitar pickups in a general sense, and the problem of break downs is a big one that could stop production cold while you tried to get the right parts etc. Dealing with the industrial companies who are barely catching onto the internet or have tech support guys who don't speak English is a huge problem too. You could synch your winder motor with the traverse but thats another level of CNC hardware and learning that gets more complex, I really didn't want to spend my time building cool gear, I want to make pickups, not winders so I absolutely love how dumb ass stupid my traverse unit is, LOVE IT!

[RedHouse]

...My only interest is in producing relatively few exceptional pickups, and no, I am not money driven. I'm not a businessman, this is not a business for me...

Ah yes, exceptional pickups, sorry I must have mis-read:

...I'd rather do one good set of pickups than six that are just OK, but thats me.

All kidding aside, it's good that you say you can maintain consistancy what with all the futzing around you say you do and not wanting to do them the same from one to the next, good work.

I really can't quite see why you'd be getting lop-sided coils if you have a programmed traverse, maybe it's your program doing that.

Is this (still) your setup then?



http://music-electronics-forum.com/a...5-dscn4141.jpg

[ReWind]

Is this (still) your setup then?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]20310[/ATTACH]

http://music-electronics-forum.com/a...5-dscn4141.jpg

Is that a 27.145Mhz crystal in the receiver? I've got an old Futaba radio control around somewhere. If I was nearby I could make a "custom scatter set" with a few wiggles of the steering wheel.

I assume that servo is connected to your CNC setup now though. Oh well, a fun idea anyway!

[Possum]

No thats not my setup, thats from about 5 or 6 years ago. But that is my Adams Maxwell winder, well one of three of them. For hand winding there is nothing better, Seymour uses one with a tail stock, my current setup has the other AM winder with machined faceplate and tailstock, the traverse sits behind it, not connected. I was surprised when I saw he was using the same winder I've been using for the last 8 years. They are getting really hard to find now, the non-digital versions, haven't seen one on Ebay in over a year now.

That photo was an iteration of Jon's wireless control system. I built my own version all in attempt to stop repetitive stress damage to wrists and elbow from hand guided winding. That system was difficult to use but I made it work for a year maybe, pretty Mickey Mouse really, centering the coil was a bitch. I literally HAD to invent my own auto winder or quit making pickups. Previous to that system I had a bicycle derailleur mechanical control that worked about just as well. I don't show my current setup because its unique, though I've offered to help a couple guys build their own, most are just too lazy and don't want to do any work like that or they think hand winding can do everything, except it can't. You also have to figure out on your own how to make off the shelf CNC software control a wire guide instead of a plasma cutter or router bit. The benefit of that software is it can also do alot of things that industrial machines can't do, once you dig into it, it took almost a year to discover all those things. If a machine is incapable of doing lopsided coils there's something screwy about that, you should be able to do anything you want with an autowinder, but these industrial machines are just too tight-ass for me, you're strictly limited to what's built in and I didn't want that. In any one day I am winding strat, tele, PAF's, all requiring different physical setups, re-adjustment of the machine, the way I wind you can't walk away and leave it by itself, coils have to be done just right. If I'm winding PAF coils all week then switch to strats, sometimes I'll end up having to wind 2 or 3 tries to get the first strat coil right, because its a total different mind-set to how they should be done. Its not something you can program for.

[RedHouse]

...If a machine is incapable of doing lopsided coils there's something screwy about that, you should be able to do anything you want with an autowinder...

Well yeah, but since you were talking as though you don't wind lop-sided coils to make "good" pickups, or are having trouble with your setup causing all the "futzing", geez, I'm getting a combination of sea-sick and whiplash trying to stay with your point.

... I'm always futzing with tension and adjustments to make sure I don't wind lop sided coils. I'd rather do one good set of pickups...

But anyway, yeah the CNC (and G-code) is too easy to learn, absolutely anybody can put it to work in just a matter of days.

I use Mach-3 (and Cut2D) which does anything/everything I need, I use it on my winders and my cnc router, it's a slam-dunk. My wife scored 3 PC's from her work when they were doing their office upgrade (new computers every 3 years) so I have those three loaded with Mach-3 and hooked up for use, it was a no-$ deal, schweeet!

I also have my own PIC controlled traverse I made back when Elepro was doing his. I liked his idea but didn't like his programming or implementaion (or price) so I did my own, it uses a RC servo much like the one in your picture, but it's linked to the faceplate shaft rotation so it's spot-on.

[Possum]

Jason check this out, a sign of things to come. This ad is in GUITAR WORLD magazine this month. A coil winding company advertising in a national magazine, they smell money, I expect to see more and more of this in the coming years. So now we got Gorman and Remington courting pickup winders.....

[SonnyW]

Jason check this out, a sign of things to come. This ad is in GUITAR WORLD magazine this month. A coil winding company advertising in a national magazine, they smell money, I expect to see more and more of this in the coming years. So now we got Gorman and Remington courting pickup winders.....[ATTACH=CONFIG]20338[/ATTACH]

I hate to jump into a high level discussion such as this. It is like elephants mating. Everything is done at a high level, and with a lot of accompanying noise. But I am glad as heck no one is looking at winders like mine. I can do any or all of the stuff that has been trumpeted about with very little effort using a simply modified machine that was made for winding transformers with heavier wire, and that has been on the net for years. I can make them as lop sided or not as I please, and repeat every time. Any pattern I want, if I am willing to spend the effort to program it. I can say one thing, it is not as easy as has been stated for new pickup winders to just jump in and take over the market. It is a lot harder than that. From my experience, existing reputations weigh in a lot heavier with most customers than pure quality, originality, and tone. I have tried it. Anyway, just my 2 cents on it.

[David Schwab]

That Gorman is like $14,000. I don't think they smell money, but I'm sure they are trying to get more sales. I can't imagine they sell a lot of those.

[David Schwab]

I can say one thing, it is not as easy as has been stated for new pickup winders to just jump in and take over the market. It is a lot harder than that. From my experience, existing reputations weigh in a lot heavier with most customers than pure quality, originality, and tone. I have tried it. Anyway, just my 2 cents on it.

The problem with the guitar pickup market as I see it is that everyone wants to do this vintage thing. How many PAFs or Strat or Tele pickups do we need on the market? Then you have the various hot wound pickups with clever names. That whole market is pretty saturated.

So you need to do something new, but then closed minded players don't want that, because they want to use the same five guitar tones as everyone else has been using the last 40 years.

[Possum]

Yeah thats all true, but there is room at the top. There's lots of guys claiming they make vintage repro stuff, but most of it is just the same old parts everyone uses, so there's tons of really unremarkable work out there. As I see it, stay small, do it better than anyone else, do it as accurate as humanly possible and do bullet proof research, enough that your product sounds identical to the vintage product. And you're right, the weird stuff, only the guys who really can't play very well will buy, like those blade half rail humbuckers there are ads everywhere for now. No one will remember them next year. Gimmicks is all it is.

That is pretty weird Gorman would put a $14,000 winder in a consumer magazine, you're right. I thought it was cheaper than that.