Difference in tone between P90 and Bucker sized single

[mick]

Yep like the title says....what tonal differences are there between a normal P90 and the bucker sized single coil ( just approximates or anything that really jumps out as different) Paht cats/P94's etc ( not sure what you custom guys call yours sorry )

Mick

[Spence]

No comparison. Take the Kent Armstrong version for example. It's a single bucker bobbin mounted in the centre of the baseplate and wound to around 8 K Ohms. Then the case is filled full of wax. What a rip-off.
The thing to do is make a bobbin that fills the baseplate and then wind it like a P90 should be. That works so much better.

[mick]

Thats the plan....I wouldn't waste my time the KA way..but what sort of differences would there be between the 2 ?, leaving the cheap junk aside for a moment , I cut down a P90 bobbin but it wasn't really long enough to get enough wire ( 43 ) for reasonable output so it's going to have to be a taller bobbin too I would imagine...

Mick

[Spence]

Yes, you need the bobbin to be the same height as a bucker bobbin and use 44 AWG plus the usual 2 bar magnet arrangement. Use A3 for the neck and A5 for the bridge and wind the same DCR for both coils.

[mick]

Couldn't I use a taller bobbin and use 42?

Mick

[David Schwab]

Couldn't I use a taller bobbin and use 42?

The squat bobbin is a key to the tone.

[mick]

Thought it might be , just not sure that 44 is an ideal wire???but haven't tried it so appreciate all advice...

Thanks

Mick

[Spence]

The key to the tone is the width of the coil. A P90 covers quite a large string area. That's why you'll need a taller bobbin and 44 AWG. There's no substitute for actually making them rather than just theorising about them.

[Mark Hammer]

I suspect that we are really talking about the difference between something like a Jazzmaster pickup and a "true" P90. The P90 has bar magnets extending outwards from the centre, which changes the nature of the sensing area, makes the pickup more sensitive, and also gives it more midrange bite. They DO share a flatter wider coilform, but winding a SC pickup on an HB footprint coilform, with rod polepieces, is more like a Jazzmaster than a P90.

I whipped up an ersatz P90 for myself a couple years back, using a slug/screws-plus-ceramic-bar purloined from an old beat up Japanese pickup, and a coilform fashioned out of hobby plastic. The coilform was somewhere in between P90 and mini-humbucker size, in terms of footprint and had about 3/8 of coil clearance. I used somewhere around 8500 turns of #41 wire, and there was oodles of room left over in the coilform. Indeed, much of that coilform's size was cosmetic. The pickup itself was quite hot, with lots of P90-ish bite/vibe. Sadly, the use of hobby plastic made the pickup very difficult to pot and its microphonic qualities (of which there is always greater risk as the coil diameter increases) rendered its high output all but useless (I wasn't about to leave the volume on 2 for the rest of my life).

There should be no need to resort to #44 wire to achieve the desired #turns unless you're aiming for something ridiculously hot. If you lack any sort of quasi-professional setup for potting, I might suggest potting the coil when it is half-wound, just to make sure the wax gets right in there, and then continue the rest of the winding.

[NightWinder]

Remember, he trying to make a P90 in a humbucker housing, and has trimmed the bobbin to fit......more tension on the 42 should give you 10,000 turns-8k- true P90 spec with the right wire. How hot are you going Mick? You stated 43 was'nt enough? Utoh!!!Another metal head??? Must be family....

[Spence]

I suspect that we are really talking about the difference between something like a Jazzmaster pickup and a "true" P90. The P90 has bar magnets extending outwards from the centre, which changes the nature of the sensing area, makes the pickup more sensitive, and also gives it more midrange bite. They DO share a flatter wider coilform, but winding a SC pickup on an HB footprint coilform, with rod polepieces, is more like a Jazzmaster than a P90.

I whipped up an ersatz P90 for myself a couple years back, using a slug/screws-plus-ceramic-bar purloined from an old beat up Japanese pickup, and a coilform fashioned out of hobby plastic. The coilform was somewhere in between P90 and mini-humbucker size, in terms of footprint and had about 3/8 of coil clearance. I used somewhere around 8500 turns of #41 wire, and there was oodles of room left over in the coilform. Indeed, much of that coilform's size was cosmetic. The pickup itself was quite hot, with lots of P90-ish bite/vibe. Sadly, the use of hobby plastic made the pickup very difficult to pot and its microphonic qualities (of which there is always greater risk as the coil diameter increases) rendered its high output all but useless (I wasn't about to leave the volume on 2 for the rest of my life).

There should be no need to resort to #44 wire to achieve the desired #turns unless you're aiming for something ridiculously hot. If you lack any sort of quasi-professional setup for potting, I might suggest potting the coil when it is half-wound, just to make sure the wax gets right in there, and then continue the rest of the winding.

For crying out loud, I have made plenty of these. No alnico rods were mentioned. The big problem is that although the pole screw spacing is the same for P90 and humbuckers alike, the humbucker dimension does not allow for the same number of turns with 42 or 43. The only way to get enough 43 on there is to make the piece between the bobbin top and bottom wider than a HB one. I still advocate the use of 44 regardless.

Also, Mick's no idiot and no weekend warrior. He knows how to pot a pickup without melting anything.

[mick]

Thanks Guys

Yep , what Spence mentions is the problem I had with the last one , could only get around 7.3k of 43 on there but only made the one so haven't looked at it further till now..nor did I try a tighter wind with 42 or 43 . It was for neck position so it worked out not too bad .
So..I wasn't sure if more space between the top and bottom bobbin was the better way to go ( I'm sure thats how the Gibson P94 was done but could be wrong ) allowing me to use 42 , thinking that 42 was also part of the P90 tonal thing etc.., All good , I'll try a few options...

Mick

[NightWinder]

How hot are you trying to go Mick, DCR? The 42 , 10,000 turns will be killer for authentic P90 tone. Is the bobbin a spec p90? Same spacing between the top and bottom. Im a lil lost as to what your really trying to do with the DCR/ turns/ design.
The A3 advice Spence fed out is dead true. I was having issues with A3 til Spence pushed me in the right direction. A3 is now one of my favorite mags to work with and design with. Super raw.

[Spence]

It's supposed to fit in a standard humbucker rout. A P90 bobbin is longer than a humbucker one. Compare the available wind area between a humbucker bobbin and a P90 one.

[mick]

Thats the point , if you shorten the P90 bobbin it's no longer long enough to hold a decent amount of 42 or 43 but I'm experimenting with a couple of ideas ,

Mick