Neo magnets and big distance from the strings: would I miss anything?

[Triad]

Hi again... I guess many of you already hate me for the strange experiments I do at times... but hope somebody will find them interesting or amusing, in the best case.
Anyway... when I started messing around with different magnets I've built a set of singles with huge and strongest Neo magnets. They were so powerful that could probably attract 3-4kg each. Of couse they can't be used, the strings pull would be huge and they'd probably ruin your credit card in the wallet
Anyway, I've been projecting pickups that don't need to be too close to strings to sound good. And they'd need no routing on the top, so they would be "invisible" from a frontal view. Do you guys think that with a magnet strong enough this could be a good solution?
Let's say I'd keep them at 12mm from the strings, maybe 15. This would probably force me to use Neo magnets only (Ferrite magnets should be huge to be powerful enough, I guess). But would I miss something in the tone? If the magnet is powerful enough can I keep the pickup farther from the strings without losing tone, detail etc.?

Another question: does the "Animal magnetism" book explain how different magnets affect the tone of a pickup? I've read many good things about it but there are a few things I'd like to read about and don't know if that book is the answer.
Thanx in advance, guys. I love this forum.

[Jazz P Bass]

Not being a 'pickup maker' I have to ask "how can a magnet affect 'tone?'"
I was under the assumption that certain pickup configurations have a resonant peak.
Is that the a tonal affect that you speak of?
Curious is I.

[Mike Sulzer]

Lowering a pickup has two effects:

1. The magnetization of the string is reduced.

2. For a given string magnetization, the amount of flux passing through the coil decreases.

Therefore if you lower the pickup and want to keep the same output, you have to increase the magnet stength a lot to make up for both effects. This is of limited practicality. if you went far enough away you would have to make the magnets so strong that you would get string pull.

Magnets can contribute to the electrical properties of the circuit because they can be permeable and conductive. But you should also remember that electric guitars are usually played through non-linear amplifiers, and since different field strengths give different outputs, the sound can change in tone just from a higher or lower output due to different harmonic generation.

Hi again... I guess many of you already hate me for the strange experiments I do at times... but hope somebody will find them interesting or amusing, in the best case.
Anyway... when I started messing around with different magnets I've built a set of singles with huge and strongest Neo magnets. They were so powerful that could probably attract 3-4kg each. Of couse they can't be used, the strings pull would be huge and they'd probably ruin your credit card in the wallet
Anyway, I've been projecting pickups that don't need to be too close to strings to sound good. And they'd need no routing on the top, so they would be "invisible" from a frontal view. Do you guys think that with a magnet strong enough this could be a good solution?
Let's say I'd keep them at 12mm from the strings, maybe 15. This would probably force me to use Neo magnets only (Ferrite magnets should be huge to be powerful enough, I guess). But would I miss something in the tone? If the magnet is powerful enough can I keep the pickup farther from the strings without losing tone, detail etc.?

Another question: does the "Animal magnetism" book explain how different magnets affect the tone of a pickup? I've read many good things about it but there are a few things I'd like to read about and don't know if that book is the answer.
Thanx in advance, guys. I love this forum.

[Triad]

Thanx a lot for taking the time to reply, I appreciate it. I think the Neo set I made years ago would be powerful enough but... well, if a man with a pacemaker plays the bass, he's gonna die.
I'd be curious to try them, I'll eventually do. Did anybody experiment with a different placement of the magnets? What happens if I placed a pickup to sense the strings on their length instead of how they're usually placed?

The question about the book is still open, hope somebody who has it will chime in.

[Mike Sulzer]

What happens if I placed a pickup to sense the strings on their length instead of how they're usually placed?

No sure what you mean.

[Triad]

Sorry, I guess it's a bit hard to explain for me since English isn't my mother tongue... I mean: if you put a pickup on the bridge, with the magnet's pole that sense the strings on their length. Imagine a Jazz single coil placed on its side right under the bridge.

[Mike Sulzer]

The output would be very weak.

Sorry, I guess it's a bit hard to explain for me since English isn't my mother tongue... I mean: if you put a pickup on the bridge, with the magnet's pole that sense the strings on their length. Imagine a Jazz single coil placed on its side right under the bridge.

[Triad]

Sorry, I meant AFTER the bridge. Yes, I guess the output would be low but in pure theory the sound should be "complete" like the one of a piezo, since the pickup will probably get the magnetic field influenced by a bigger part of the string. Of course is just a guess...

[David King]

Pat Bartolini once told me that the taller the aspect of the magnet the further it could "throw". A taller, thinner magnet could theoretically magnetize a string to the desired level from further away but you would still need to have the coil close enough to sense the changes. A more sensitive coil would help obviously.

Having a pickup behind the bridge wouldn't work at all unless you could somehow cantilever short pieces of string off the back of the bridge saddles. The result would still be very low output because the movement (moment) of these wiggling string segments would be very small. Phase would be 180 off and then some due to inertia and there would be a very strong resonance (like a tuning fork) that would probably overcome the note you were trying to hear.

[basscu]

hello triad,
as far as I remember (can't find the book right now) erno swan ( hope this is the correct name) uses nothing but ferrite-magnets for the projects in his book. I don't think other magnets are discussed
in animal magnetism. at the time the book was written it was really difficult to get alnico rods or neo-magnets.
chr.

[Mike Sulzer]

If you start with a magnet of a certain size, making it either taller or fatter will increase the distance from the magnet before the field lines diverge quickly. This is in the direction of the field, of course.

Pat Bartolini once told me that the taller the aspect of the magnet the further it could "throw". A taller, thinner magnet could theoretically magnetize a string to the desired level from further away but you would still need to have the coil close enough to sense the changes. A more sensitive coil would help obviously.

Having a pickup behind the bridge wouldn't work at all unless you could somehow cantilever short pieces of string off the back of the bridge saddles. The result would still be very low output because the movement (moment) of these wiggling string segments would be very small. Phase would be 180 off and then some due to inertia and there would be a very strong resonance (like a tuning fork) that would probably overcome the note you were trying to hear.

[Marko Ursin]

Animal magnetism says nothing about magnet type and sound.

[David Schwab]

Not being a 'pickup maker' I have to ask "how can a magnet affect 'tone?'"

What you will find is with alnico magnets, the stronger magnets sound brighter. So Alnico 5 is brighter than Alnico 2.

Ceramic also tend to give a bright tone and are a little thinner in the low end. But this is assuming you replaced the alnico with a ceramic and didn't change anything else. I also think it's probably because the pickup is louder in the high frequencies, so it makes the bass sound weaker in comparison.

Neos tend to produce a lot of low end once you get to a certain size magnet. I don't know the reason for this. I was working on a strat size humbucker using neo magnets. With a larger magnet the pickup was too bassy sounding. I went to a smaller magnet and it sounded more balanced.

[Triad]

Thanx! I'm mainly into Neo/Ferrite stuff myself lately but can't forget my long time friend AlNiCo5

[David King]

Erno Zwaan is how he spells his name. It does mean swan in dutch I think