Horse Shoe Pickup

[Jeff Callahan]

Can't find any specs out there for a Rickenbacker lap steel, anyone have approximate Rdc, or turn count? It looks to be 42 AWG. It's the later 1.25" wide variety, I think late fifties, but any info on these in general would help.

Thanks,
Jeff

[David Schwab]

It should be 44 AWG. I think there are some threads here on them.

Did you do a search for "horseshoe"?

Here's a few I found:

http://music-electronics-forum.com/t30022/

http://music-electronics-forum.com/t28697/

http://music-electronics-forum.com/t1660/

[Jeff Callahan]

Thanks David, I thought there had to be stuff on here, but my search didn't give me that first thread you posted.

[jason lollar]

I have had at least 100 rickenbacker horseshoes through my shop and they are either 38 gauge around 1.6K or 42 around 6k (six string versions) . never seen one wound with 44 .

[David Schwab]

I have had at least 100 rickenbacker horseshoes through my shop and they are either 38 gauge around 1.6K or 42 around 6k (six string versions) . never seen one wound with 44 .

I was hoping you would show up.

I was just going by what John Hall says, which is they have only ever used 44 gauge wire.

[Jeff Callahan]

Thanks Jason,

I too was hoping you saw this thread, thanks for your input, much appreciated.

[jason lollar]

I know David-John hall swears they never used anything but 44 gauge but hes wrong, maybe hes right about the standard guitar pickups but no ones knows much about the older pickups at rickenbacker that i have ever talked to- they dont have any reason to know though.

[David Schwab]

I know David-John hall swears they never used anything but 44 gauge but hes wrong, maybe hes right about the standard guitar pickups but no ones knows much about the older pickups at rickenbacker that i have ever talked to- they dont have any reason to know though.

He probably only knows what was ordered since his father had taken over, and even then, not on the older stuff.

[soundmasterg]

I was hoping you would show up.

I was just going by what John Hall says, which is they have only ever used 44 gauge wire.

The qualifier with that quote from Mr. Hall that people neglect to mention is that he says they have only used 44 gauge since around 1964....I'd have to find the exact quote at home later to post if anyone wanted to see it...so that leaves a lot of possible differences for anything from the mid 30's to the early 60's. Personally I can't imagine the toaster pickups on the Capri's in the 50's would have been 44 gauge wire with 4k or whatever they had on them....I tried one of their modern "reissues" of the 50's Lennon model with it's 3.5k 44 gauge and it was so bright as to be completely unuseable in the bridge position....it sounded like one of those cheap plywood Italian guitars from the 60's. With 44 gauge PE the modern molded toaster bobbin is filled up with around 13k, and 43 gauge it is about 9.5k to fill it. The non-molded bobbins that were used on the older hi gains and toasters can take more wire, and I think they were using heavy formvar anyway so that would be different than PE of course. As for the Horseshoes, I am sure Jason is as much of an expert as you would find these days on these so his advice is spot on as usual!

For your toaster-esq pickups that you do, do you use 44 gauge on them Jason? Have you ever experimented with anything else? Personally I don't like the molded bobbin pickups that Rickenbacker has been using since the early 90's...the dimensions where the wire goes on the bobbin is further out than the older pickups so that changes the sound of course. I wonder if it is why RIC went with adjustable poles on their newer hi gains...to try to recapture some of the highs that were lost with the switch to the molded bobbin....

Greg

[David Schwab]

The qualifier with that quote from Mr. Hall that people neglect to mention is that he says they have only used 44 gauge since around 1964....I'd have to find the exact quote at home later to post if anyone wanted to see it...

Is this it?

John Hall Answers Questions About Rickenbacker Pickups

Subject: Rewinding Toaster Pickups

Date: 1998/07/10


Question: What happens if the reissues are simply unwound to the DC resistance of the originals, obviously keeping the reissue #46 gauge wire as opposed to the #42 of the 60s instruments?


Answer: I'm going to quote from a message I previously posted on this topic: I don't know about the late 50's . . . I'm not going to destroy one of those pickups to find out . . . but from the early 60's until today we've only used #44 wire.
...
Now let me say it again . . . SINCE THE EARLY SIXTIES, WE HAVE USED NOTHING BUT #44 MAGNET WIRE. If it's not #44 on your pickup, it's NOT FACTORY WOUND. We have never used #42 or #46 wire as stated. During the vintage pickup "redesign" phase, we tested close to 100 pickups fro a variety of parameters and the current product is essentially an average or composite of all these units. But beyond this, we even looked through all of our old production and purchasing records to make sure we are using materials of the genuine specs. I can tell you that again that nothing other than #44 wire has been purchased, although several different insulation materials and other wire coatings have been used through the years.

Of course he's talking about the Toasters, and not the Horseshoes.

The two toaster pickups in my '73 4001 basses read about 8k.

[soundmasterg]

Is this it?

John Hall Answers Questions About Rickenbacker Pickups


Of course he's talking about the Toasters, and not the Horseshoes.

The two toaster pickups in my '73 4001 basses read about 8k.

Yep, thats it.

Even changing to different insulation materials would make a difference in the sound though if they went to say poly from heavy formvar or something. I've got some toasters I played around with with Possum's help and I have 44 PE and 43 PE on two different bobbins...wound as much as they will take. The 44 PE is a little over 12k, and the 43 PE is 9.5k or so. I haven't had a chance to try them yet though, and since I don't have any older toasters (non-molded bobbins) to compare to, then I can't really get anything accurate as far as a comparison. If I ever get my hands on some old toasters then I will test them with my Extech and magnet meter to see what they come out as. With the hi gain pickups, the non-molded bobbin ones sound way better so it wouldn't surprise me if that was also the case with the toasters.

Greg

[David Schwab]

12K is too hot for a toaster, unless you want it to sound like a new hi-gain, and they are pretty muddy sounding. I get those from people to rewind to vintage spec, between 7-8k.

The old toasters have molded bobbins. They always had molded bobbins. They have the two slots raised to fit into the metal cover.

The bridge pickups on the basses used to be PC board material, but now they use the same molded toaster bobbin, and you can see the two raised toaster slots on them.

Here's a '72 Rick bridge pickup from a 4001:



Here's one, from about '76:



Here's a hi-gain bridge pickup using a toaster plastic bobbin. You can see the two molded slots for the toaster cover.



This is also what they use for the open top chrome bezel hi-gains.

[SonnyW]

Can't find any specs out there for a Rickenbacker lap steel, anyone have approximate Rdc, or turn count? It looks to be 42 AWG. It's the later 1.25" wide variety, I think late fifties, but any info on these in general would help.

Thanks,
Jeff

I have rewound two of them that were from a 8 string lap steel. I was able to get the specs by saving the wire off of the one I disassembled and carefully weighing it out. I also double checked by weighing it before and after. These were wound with #42 wire which I checked by measuring out 12 feet of it and measuring the resistance, plus verifying the wire diameter. Based on that I calculated from the wire maker's data sheets that they were originally about 8.0K ohms. This matches up fairly well with specs I found for another 8 string model that was for sale that was 7.34K ohms.

[soundmasterg]

12K is too hot for a toaster, unless you want it to sound like a new hi-gain, and they are pretty muddy sounding. I get those from people to rewind to vintage spec, between 7-8k.

The old toasters have molded bobbins. They always had molded bobbins. They have the two slots raised to fit into the metal cover.

The bridge pickups on the basses used to be PC board material, but now they use the same molded toaster bobbin, and you can see the two raised toaster slots on them.

If you're trying to get the vintage sound, then yes 12k is too hot. A 12k toaster still doesn't sound like a 12k hi gain though. Its brighter and the sound still has that alnico warmth. It is a weaker sound than the hi gain though...less powerful.

The newer molded bobbins put the wire out further than the older hi gain pickups with the bobbins using a separate top and bottom piece. It changes the sound and makes it impossible to get back to the older hi gain sound with a newer molded bobbin. The AC resistance is a lot higher on the molded bobbin hi gains than on the older design which is one reason why they are so muddy. I wonder if it could be one reason why they introduced the adjustable pole piece hi gains? To get back some of those lost highs? I took out the modern molded bobbin hi gains from my 2006 360 and stuck in some older hi gains from the early 80's that have the seperate bobbin pieces. I unwound the bridge pickup to around 10k as it was at 17k. The neck pickup is at 8k and both pickups sound WAY better than before with the 13k modern hi gains.

Are the vintage toaster pickups using a molded bobbin also? Say something from the 50's or early 60's? Is the bobbin just like the modern ones or different in some way? I seem to remember seeing differences somewhere about the older vintage toasters versus the newer ones. Maybe they had exposed magnets on the inside of the coil rather than being encased in plastic as they are on the modern bobbins?

The 12k toaster that I had Possum wind up for me is an experiment. Its actually a hi gain pickup that I drilled out the polepieces and stuck alnico magnets in. I did it in such a way that I can remove the magnets and try different types. Right now it has short A5 magnets in it, but I have some long A3 magnets to try. Its also using 44 PE as I wanted to see how it would change the sound. To my understanding, the older Ric pickups are usually heavy formvar while the modern ones are usually poly.

Greg

[David Schwab]

The oldest toaster I have seen was early 70s. But because of the way they fit into the covers, they would have to be molded. They have two raised parts that fit into the open slots. The hi-gain bridge pickups were Rickenbacker's way of replacing the horseshoe. In that same interview John Hall says his dad and Paul Barth "cobbled" them together, and it looks like it. So rather than have a new mold made for the bridge pickup, they just made them from the PC board material.

I don't know when they started using the same bobbin for the bridge pickup. One thing you have to realize is on the bridge Hi-gains between the rivets and the wire they have foam rubber. So the wire is not that close to the poles. Maybe closer than on the plastic bobbins. The big change is the magnets. The new hi-gains use really weak rubber magnets compared to the toasters, which had the larger diameter alnicos. The old toasters had the long magnets too. This is a big reason why the hi-gains sound dark.

I rebuilt one for a customer who complained it sounded too dark. I rewound it to be brighter, and replaced the rubber magnet with two small neo magnets and a steel reflector plate. It still had that Rick tone, but was more like a loud toaster.

Here it was before I rewound it. It read 11.89k.





Here's the bottom with the rubber magnet removed.