Hexaphonic Pickup Project

[cycfi]

It's highly unlikely that a hex magnetic pickup that has any kind of decent separation...with these tiny coils...is going to sound anything like a traditional Strat pickup. Your stated requirements do not add up to what we know as a Strat sound, and you're looking for individual string sound processing.

It does not. There are more highs and even tighter bass response. But it still has the comb filter effect due to pole positions and standing wave nodes cancellation and all that. Piezos at the bridge will not and cannot have that.

I never said that piezos sound like magnetic pickups...though most people haven't heard what good piezos properly buffered can do...please actually read my previous post to see why I suggested that in this particular application, piezos are worthy of serious consideration.

Any links? I'd love to read up on piezos.

[Snip]

Of course I realize that because you've put so much time into the magnetic direction, you have a lot invested in it being the best approach. I think you might want to open your mind to other possibilities. Piezos also take up very little real estate.

Fair enough. I never said that it is the best approach though. And there are other considerations. For example, replacing the bridge or saddles involves a lot more work. What's the better approach? I'd say each has its pros and cons.

[snip]

All that said, there's a big difference between essentially using a mag pickup as an effect and needing a phase accurate pickup with great string to string separation. When people talk about liking "the sound" of a magnetic pickup, they're essentially talking about a using transducer as an effect...and don't get me wrong, I do this too. I wind my own for my Model 1 guitars and for my Electroline series of basses. But when I want individual string output or stereo mixing, etc., I now greatly prefer piezos...properly designed and properly buffered, of course...which not many are...which is why I make my own.

It's not just the transducer effect. As I mentioned there's also the pole positions and standing wave nodes cancellation and all that /mojo/. Which is better in terms of sound? IMO, neither. Each has its own character. FWIW, I do intend to go into piezos, not as a replacement, but as an addition. I'd love to get your ideas on how to tackle that.

[Rick Turner]

Joel, we should talk. Please don't take any of my comments as negative criticism; I deeply respect what you've put into this project. I'm just trying to open up the doors a bit farther.

I'd been designing and making magnetic pickups for nearly 20 years before I decided to tackle the piezo world. I got pretty lucky pretty quickly, and I had a fantastic analog circuit designer to work with...Bob Wolstein now of Highlander Musical Audio. My first bit of luck was in almost instantly designing a great sounding individual string pickup...and a little later figuring out why it sounded so good which led me to understanding that it's all about geometry...and you have to start with high headroom buffering before any of the rest of it counts at all. I also had fantastic access to an incredible recording studio when I was doing my most basic research. I had the audio microscope with unbelievable gear and some extra well tuned ears around to check my work and also look at what others had been doing. Out of that has come my being able to just look at a piezo design and pretty closely know what it's going to sound like, and very few of them do what can be done.

And, of course, the funny thing is that it's not about how much the parts cost, it's what you do with them. There are some issues with regard to what you can get away with visually...it's a little like phono cartridges...the more you try to cover up the works, the worse they sound. But with the latest in manufacturing technology, I think it's possible to make great sounding piezos that pass the eyeball test.

The first key is that nothing gets in to the top of the piezo but the string energy... Almost impossible to achieve, but that's the goal... The less extraneous vibration that gets in, the better. And then, you want a pickup that is responsive to lateral string vibrations, not just or mainly vertical vibrations...and that is an issue with mag pickups to a certain degree. Piezos can be coupled in shear as well as pressure...that's the other key.

And, of course, another funny thing is that there is a bare handful of people on the planet who "get" this stuff. Most designers of piezo pickups seem to be amazed and glad that they even get a signal out of the pickup, much less really figure out how to optimize it... And the other thing is that this is mostly NOT about electronics...it's about the mechanics of it. This is about vibration force vectors which get transduced into voltage.

[cycfi]

Joel, we should talk. Please don't take any of my comments as negative criticism; I deeply respect what you've put into this project. I'm just trying to open up the doors a bit farther.

I'd been designing and making magnetic pickups for nearly 20 years before I decided to tackle the piezo world. I got pretty lucky pretty quickly, and I had a fantastic analog circuit designer to work with...Bob Wolstein now of Highlander Musical Audio. My first bit of luck was in almost instantly designing a great sounding individual string pickup...and a little later figuring out why it sounded so good which led me to understanding that it's all about geometry...and you have to start with high headroom buffering before any of the rest of it counts at all. I also had fantastic access to an incredible recording studio when I was doing my most basic research. I had the audio microscope with unbelievable gear and some extra well tuned ears around to check my work and also look at what others had been doing. Out of that has come my being able to just look at a piezo design and pretty closely know what it's going to sound like, and very few of them do what can be done.

And, of course, the funny thing is that it's not about how much the parts cost, it's what you do with them. There are some issues with regard to what you can get away with visually...it's a little like phono cartridges...the more you try to cover up the works, the worse they sound. But with the latest in manufacturing technology, I think it's possible to make great sounding piezos that pass the eyeball test.

The first key is that nothing gets in to the top of the piezo but the string energy... Almost impossible to achieve, but that's the goal... The less extraneous vibration that gets in, the better. And then, you want a pickup that is responsive to lateral string vibrations, not just or mainly vertical vibrations...and that is an issue with mag pickups to a certain degree. Piezos can be coupled in shear as well as pressure...that's the other key.

And, of course, another funny thing is that there is a bare handful of people on the planet who "get" this stuff. Most designers of piezo pickups seem to be amazed and glad that they even get a signal out of the pickup, much less really figure out how to optimize it... And the other thing is that this is mostly NOT about electronics...it's about the mechanics of it. This is about vibration force vectors which get transduced into voltage.

I'm genuinely interested! I won't be throwing out the research done with this project anytime soon. I still believe that there's a lot more that can be achieved with magnetic PUs. I believe these two distinct technologies have their own unique characteristics and one is not better than the other. But I am definitely interested with piezos. My knowledge about them is very basic though, and so the question is are you willing to share some information? I certainly don't have the facilities that you have at your disposal.

[David Schwab]

If piezos are all that great, then why do electric guitars still use magnetic pickups? The sound of course! Piezos sound differently due to a lot of factors. If I were to simply track the notes and generate MIDI, I'd use piezos.

Magnetics rock! :-)

Listen to some modeling guitars, like the Line 6 Variaxe or the new Roland/Fender V guitar.

Magnetics rock when you want to get traditional tones. I'm probably atypical, but I have no interest in my guitars sounding exactly like a Strat or what ever. I just want sounds I like.

I also use a modeling amp for guitar.

[cycfi]

Listen to some modeling guitars, like the Line 6 Variaxe or the new Roland/Fender V guitar.

That's the processed sound. I am alluding to the unprocessed sound.

Magnetics rock when you want to get traditional tones. I'm probably atypical, but I have no interest in my guitars sounding exactly like a Strat or what ever. I just want sounds I like.

I also use a modeling amp for guitar.

Again, we're talking about the unprocessed sound. I am also atypical. I too have no interest in guitars sounding exactly like a Strat. I never said anything like that.

To be clear, the playful words "Magnetics rock! :-)" ... (hey notice the smiley?) is in response to Rick saying that "Piezos rule!". No single transducer technology can be said to be the best. That would be like saying that wine is better than beer. No it is not! Each has its own flavor and characteristics.

[Rick Turner]

And that's why I use both piezos and magnetics, often in the same instrument(s).

[cycfi]

And that's why I use both piezos and magnetics, often in the same instrument(s).

Nods. Exactly! : Now we're in the same page

[Rick Turner]

Joel, we were never as far off-page as you may think we were.

[David Schwab]

That's the processed sound. I am alluding to the unprocessed sound.

You have to process the sound if you want it to sound like a magnetic pickup.

Now try and make a magnetic pickup sound like a piezo.

[cycfi]

You have to process the sound if you want it to sound like a magnetic pickup.

Now try and make a magnetic pickup sound like a piezo.

Why would I want to do that? ;-)

[Rick Turner]

The new Antares Autotune guitar system does a remarkable job of simulating the sound of magnetic pickups from a hex piezo.

Yes, Pandora's box has been opened...

[Leo_Gnardo]

Hey Rick, by golly it's good to see you back on MEF!! One of these days soon I'll send you a PM & we'll have a good little jaw-wag. The last time I saw you, we were standing in the audience at House of Blues Sunset, getting a very impressive earful of Becky Barksdale & her band. Oh and eyeful too, what a cutie, besides her muso talents... It was 1995. Seems like yesterday.

More to the point of the hex pu thread, FWIW I first encountered RMC pickups about 10 years ago and was pretty darn impressed. Separate piezo for each string, and there's a version mounted in a sort of tune-a-matic bridge format. And a very rich sound that reminded me a good bit of the Highlander. There may be other choices by now - I haven't looked lately. I don't see why an RMC couldn't be set up as a hex pu (if Richard McLish already hasn't). Sure hit my ear in the right places as a mono.

Please disregard if this has already been covered.

[cycfi]

Ah Emulations... Here's my opinion. Emulations are good, but they are, ehm... emulations -second-rate wannabes of the real thing. What I really want is to explore new sounds. Not the same beaten path. Not the strat, Not the Les Paul. Not the Marshall. Something totally different with a totally unique signature.

I know this will be controversial, but here's my take on emulations.

[Yury Oransky]

Hi men! At last I found a place what I have spent all my life for about! sorry if my ukrainian English is not very good.
I move to separate hex signal processing, as you too...
it\s very late time right now overhere, I read all this thread and my eyes are too weak.. I hope you will be interessted about my thoughts . I'll contimue tomorrow...

[Yury Oransky]

What about starting a new thread "Ideas of processing hexaphonic signals"?