Measuring Tension On Wound Pickup

[David Schwab]

Tension matters....

How so?

[Beef Coon]

David I can't tell if you're being a smart ass for sure, but I'm going to assume so and ignore your question.

[David Schwab]

David I can't tell if you're being a smart ass for sure, but I'm going to assume so and ignore your question.

No, I'm not. Explain why tension matters.

How many pickups have you wound?

[Beef Coon]

No foreplay, honeymoon or anything and you're already acting like that...

[big_teee]

To split the difference, I like a good firm coil, not too loose with wire falling off the coil.
Not so tight, as to flare the bobbins, or to stretch or break the wire.
Beyond that, I see no reason to analyze how tight a dead coil was wound.
Unwrap some wire, and count the TPL.
Then wind the pickup and hope for the best!
More than likely your pickup will sound as good as the original.
At least I like to think so.
T

[Lyrebird Steve]

Tension impacts:
(i) the coils overall geometry (eg buldge or flat) = change in sound
(ii) excessive tension can stretch the wire causing the wire to be thinner in places = change in sound

I've only wound a couple of hundred Strat coils, so I hope my observations are valid David

[Beef Coon]

Thank you for those responses.

- I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, or be a pain in the ass by asking redundant questions.

I started this thread after pealing a bunch of turns off one of my own pickups a few days ago and trying to think if it would be possible to measure the tension of the coil as I was unwinding or through some other means. That motive spawned from a couple threads on here about tensioning - how much, how to measure - static versus while winding etc. Can't remember the thread but someone was talking about using a certain amount of tension - I think it was like 35g of tension for humbucker coils and someone else (Jon Gundry?) mentioned that that amount - 35g or whatever it was - was at the upper end of what PAF coils were wound at.

Now... how can one figure that out? Use the same machine with same tensioning mechanics, wound at what one would expect typical speed/RPM for that machine is and measure tension - I'd think that's how Mr. Gundry did it in that particular instance, but maybe I'm wrong there.

Are there other ways? I've check the tension of wound coils by applying light pressure with a wooden chopstick to the middle of a coil to get a rough idea ... but that doesn't work well obviously with a wax impregnated coil. I've done this to see what kind of tension different makers are using.

[Lyrebird Steve]

I've check the tension of wound coils by applying light pressure with a wooden chopstick to the middle of a coil to get a rough idea ... but that doesn't work well obviously with a wax impregnated coil.

... any chance of removing wax with a heatgun / hairdryer ? Once it warms through to 60 celcius the wax should start to drip/blow out of there

[copperheadroads]

Thank you for those responses.

- I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, or be a pain in the ass by asking redundant questions.

I started this thread after pealing a bunch of turns off one of my own pickups a few days ago and trying to think if it would be possible to measure the tension of the coil as I was unwinding or through some other means. That motive spawned from a couple threads on here about tensioning - how much, how to measure - static versus while winding etc. Can't remember the thread but someone was talking about using a certain amount of tension - I think it was like 35g of tension for humbucker coils and someone else (Jon Gundry?) mentioned that that amount - 35g or whatever it was - was at the upper end of what PAF coils were wound at.

Now... how can one figure that out? Use the same machine with same tensioning mechanics, wound at what one would expect typical speed/RPM for that machine is and measure tension - I'd think that's how Mr. Gundry did it in that particular instance, but maybe I'm wrong there.

Are there other ways? I've check the tension of wound coils by applying light pressure with a wooden chopstick to the middle of a coil to get a rough idea ... but that doesn't work well obviously with a wax impregnated coil. I've done this to see what kind of tension different makers are using.

Do you have any sort of device for measuring tension in mind for winding not unwinding ?

[Joe Gwinn]

David I can't tell if you're being a smart ass for sure, but I'm going to assume so and ignore your question.

David is actually asking a valid and non-obvious question, although your sense of danger is well-justified - tension is often discussed, sometimes quite loudly.

So the basic question is what parts of pickup behaviour do you believe are in some sense controlled by tension? It will turn out that these behaviours have many possible causes, perhaps including tension, perhaps not.

[LtKojak]

If I may, although winding coils is not my area of expertise, what I would suggest is the following: take a DC reading of 10 feet of the recuperated wire, then compare it with the known wire specs. With this you can calculate a percentage of stretching, meaning that the coil WAS PURPOSELY wound too tight.

Otherwise, the reading won't be of much help but, good news is, if the wire shows no stretching, chances are that the machine was setup to handle max tension for the spec wire, less 10%. This is kinda unwritten rule for setting up winding machines, as it prevents the most slippery of Poly Nylon wire to slip when finished.

So, all you need is to find out the TPL, and with this info, you'll be able to ballpark the coil you're trying to copy. The rest is actually trial-and-error.

HTH,

[big_teee]

That would make a cool experiment?
Read DCR of your own wire, then wind a coil real tight.
Then take some wire off your coil and make DCR readings of the removed wire.
Then compare the results.
Do that about 3 times.
Loose tension
Medium tension
Tight tension before breakage.

[Beef Coon]

I do not have any means besides my fingers for measuring tension. I have read on here about using a force gauge and plan to incorporate a tensioning mechanism and means of measurement.

From my vastly small amount of experience I've found that tension plays a significant roll in responsiveness or "dynamics" and "initial pick attack and note decay."

That is what I am most interested in - manipulating the responsiveness.... and if I run across a pickup that has the type of responsiveness I want I'd like to find a way to measure it. And if someone brings me a dead pickup they loved I want to duplicate that responsiveness.

I hand guide & use both hands for tension.

I've taken one set of parts and swapped them onto a few different bobbins with only the tension changing - the same total turns and TPL (hand guiding throws off the consistency a bit of course), same pole screw height and pickup height. These are P90 pickups.

There were differences. The really tight coils had good responsiveness with some gain but kinda dead/flat when clean. That seemed to shift as tension went down. So it's about finding a happy medium.

[big_teee]

I do not have any means besides my fingers for measuring tension. I have read on here about using a force gauge and plan to incorporate a tensioning mechanism and means of measurement.

From my vastly small amount of experience I've found that tension plays a significant roll in responsiveness or "dynamics" and "initial pick attack and note decay."

That is what I am most interested in - manipulating the responsiveness.... and if I run across a pickup that has the type of responsiveness I want I'd like to find a way to measure it. And if someone brings me a dead pickup they loved I want to duplicate that responsiveness.

I hand guide & use both hands for tension.

I've taken one set of parts and swapped them onto a few different bobbins with only the tension changing - the same total turns and TPL (hand guiding throws off the consistency a bit of course), same pole screw height and pickup height. These are P90 pickups.

There were differences. The really tight coils had good responsiveness with some gain but kinda dead/flat when clean. That seemed to shift as tension went down. So it's about finding a happy medium.

Don't confuse tension effecting the pickup tone, with wire size.
Wire size varies a lot for each size of wire.
This effects tone greatly.
Even if you analyze the dead pickup,
You have to duplicate it going forward winding the new one.
With All Due Respect, I think you're getting overly distracted by tension, when there are things that effect tone more.
Like I said, beyond Lite, medium and Tight, There is not much more you can do, or analyze IMO.

[Beef Coon]

That would make a cool experiment?
Read DCR of your own wire, then wind a coil real tight.
Then take some wire off your coil and make DCR readings of the removed wire.
Then compare the results.
Do that about 3 times.
Loose tension
Medium tension
Tight tension before breakage.

Ha, I posted before reading LT's or your reply... interesting.