Really Dumb Question

[voodoochild]

I am new to pickup winding and making so please don't make me feel too stupid. My question is, on a Strat why does the middle pickup have to be reverse wound as well as reverse polarity? It seems to me that you should be able to wind all the pickups the same direction and just reverse the lead wires off the pickup and the polarity. Is there any reason nobody seems to do that? Thanks in advance.

[Spence]

It doesn't have to be RW/RP. The only reason that was ever done was for people who wanted to get rid of the 60 cycle hum. of corse this only works in positions 2 and 4 on a standard 5 way switch. fender were very late to offer thsi option; maybe because they couldn't grasp why people would be happy with humcancelling in only 2 of 5 switch options. They didn't realise there were so many noise intolerant bed wetters. ( That'll upset a few.... )
In any case you can take a standard set, reverse the hookups and reverse the polarity of the magnets.

[voodoochild]

Thats exactly what I was thinking. Thanks Spence. I just wonder why everyone takes the extra time to set up for winding reverse when you should just be able change the polarity and hookups. Seems more cost effective right? Maybe there is some sort of tone factor I may be missing.

[Spence]

Most guitarists wo use RW'RP middle pickups take around 20 years to admit that the subsequent volume dip when in 2 or 4 is a source of great disappointment. I don't think there are any major tonal issues with RW/RP.

[David Schwab]

fender were very late to offer thsi option; maybe because they couldn't grasp why people would be happy with humcancelling in only 2 of 5 switch options.

Fender didn't install 5 position switches on Strats for a LONG time. There were no 2 and 4 positions. You only got one pickup at a time. people used to either just put the switch in the in between positions, or remove the spring. 5 position switches were after market add ons for a long time. I installed a lot of those things over the years. I don't think Fender had them standard until the 80's.

They didn't realise there were so many noise intolerant bed wetters. ( That'll upset a few.... )
In any case you can take a standard set, reverse the hookups and reverse the polarity of the magnets.

Would you buy a stereo system or TV set that hummed loudly? Or a guitar amp that had a lot of hiss? I bet you wouldn't! So why is it OK with a Strat?

A lot of people put humbuckers in them thar Strats (like Beck)... and later EMGs! (Gilmore)

Must be a reason for it.

Thats exactly what I was thinking. Thanks Spence. I just wonder why everyone takes the extra time to set up for winding reverse when you should just be able change the polarity and hookups. Seems more cost effective right? Maybe there is some sort of tone factor I may be missing.

No change in tone. Gibson never wound the coils reverse in their humbuckers. There's no need for it. I think Seymour Duncan or David Schecter started that whole reverse winding thing. One of them guys.

One reason you might want to reverse the winding direction, as opposed to simply reversing the hook up leads, is if the magnets were not grounded.

On the AudereAudio web site, they state the following:

Pickup Magnet Noise

When pickups are wound with the magnetic wire directly against the magnets or pole pieces, i.e. no thick bobbin, then there will be strong capacitance coupling in between the magnetic parts and the wire. If the pickup hot terminal is wired closest to the pole pieces (left 2 drawings), then noise introduced onto the magnetic parts when you touch it will be injected into the preamp (top, left) unless you ground the pole piece (bottom, left). If the pickup's common connection is wired closest to the magnetic parts (right 2 drawings), the common will shield the rest of the coil from most of the noise.

[voodoochild]

Thanks David. Thats great information. So I guess it would result in a noisier pickup maybe? The pictures shown for non-grounded magnets don't seem to show a difference. However it explains differently.

[Spence]

Would you buy a stereo system or TV set that hummed loudly? Or a guitar amp that had a lot of hiss? I bet you wouldn't! So why is it OK with a Strat?

Look, if the pickups you make hum loudy then maybe you need to take a look at what you're doing. In any case if it only works in positions 2 and 4 on the 5 way switch it's not a lot of good. The solution therefore is to work out some other solution.
I play live very regularly at great volume through a valve amp in all sorts of venues with stacks of pedals using a Strat mostly. I neither have a RW/RP middle pickup, Kinmans a dummy coil or any line conditioning going on. I use a '59 Fender Bitsa and never have loud humming unless I'm doing a particularly electrifying version of Kumbaya My lord.

[Possum]

noise and coil shorts....

You'll get more noise only if you toch the magnets on a fake reverse. One reason NOT to fake a reverse wind is if you get any kind of coil short to the magnets, then if your customer uses low string action if the strings graze the magnets at all the guitar will shut OFF. Which will make you look rather stupid trying to explain how you are faking something instead of doing it right. (my opinion). My own opinion on the reverse wind humbucker thing is that its for sissies :-) You lose volume in 2 and 4 positions if you make them humbucking, if your pickups are closely matched because you will get too much cancellation resulting in loss of more than 60 cycle hum. Hendrix, Beck, Clapton, none of those guys had reverse wound middle pickups in their heyday. they did use the 2 and 4 positions on a 3 way switch by jiggling it inbetween in those days. For me I don't remember anyone doing that when I was a kid, you got 3 sounds and that was it :-)

[NightWinder]

Kinda like 3 strikes, your out!!

[David Schwab]

Look, if the pickups you make hum loudy then maybe you need to take a look at what you're doing. In any case if it only works in positions 2 and 4 on the 5 way switch it's not a lot of good. The solution therefore is to work out some other solution.

None of my pickups hum, but I don't make single coils. I know that in most situations single coils work OK. I had a Tele in here the other day that I put a set of Fralins in. I was able to play it sitting here in front of my monitor without too much noise. We all know how to reposition ourselves to get rid of hum.

But... then you get in a bar with light dimmers... lol

And I agree.. there needs to be some other solution. I'm just amazed that we are in the 21th Century, and we still have pickups that hum.

It can be done, but if you want it to sound like existing Strat pickups, you need to be able to make them in a different form factor. Putting two smaller coils in that cover wont work.

I play live very regularly at great volume through a valve amp in all sorts of venues with stacks of pedals using a Strat mostly. I neither have a RW/RP middle pickup, Kinmans a dummy coil or any line conditioning going on. I use a '59 Fender Bitsa and never have loud humming unless I'm doing a particularly electrifying version of Kumbaya My lord.

He he he!

I'll be the first to say that I'd rather hear a real single coil in a Strat than those Lace Sensors they were using! The blue one was OK, but they are so damn thin sounding. Bleh.

[Zhangliqun]

In any case if it only works in positions 2 and 4 on the 5 way switch it's not a lot of good.

Not true. Sure it would be a LOT better if all 5 positions were hum-free, but those notch positions have less output so having the hum out of the way at least makes them a bit clearer.

[Spence]

Not true. Sure it would be a LOT better if all 5 positions were hum-free, but those notch positions have less output so having the hum out of the way at least makes them a bit clearer.

That's rubbish. If you can't stand hum but you have RW/RP you have a guitar where you're only using 2/5ths of it's tonal capability and that's dumb. not only that, lower output doesn't make the sound clearer at all; it makes it lower in volume that's all.

[NightWinder]

Wow. This thread is the best I've seen in a while. The question answered in 10 posts!! Key elements for beginers. Could'nt be simpler

[David Schwab]

That's rubbish. If you can't stand hum but you have RW/RP you have a guitar where you're only using 2/5ths of it's tonal capability and that's dumb. not only that, lower output doesn't make the sound clearer at all; it makes it lower in volume that's all.

Two pickups in parallel are always lower output. You get half the impedance. The RW/RP doesn't matter because they are far enough apart, and they are summing together. If they were really out of phase, you would hear it, like on a Fender Mustang. RW/RP are in phase.

But it is dumb to have it hum canceling on just two settings. And how often do people use those two settings? Good for some funk stuff, and that's about it!

Brian May has his middle pickups RW/RP, but he has all the pickups in series.

[Spence]

Two pickups in parallel are always lower output. You get half the impedance. The RW/RP doesn't matter because they are far enough apart, and they are summing together. If they were really out of phase, you would hear it, like on a Fender Mustang. RW/RP are in phase.

But it is dumb to have it hum canceling on just two settings. And how often do people use those two settings? Good for some funk stuff, and that's about it!

Brian May has his middle pickups RW/RP, but he has all the pickups in series.

I think that's pretty much what I said. Thanks to David for pointing out the fact that two Strat pickups which are RW/RP to each other are in phase not out of phase.