something that grinds my gears

[rhgwynn]

When pickup makers claim to have examined a vintage pickup and determined it's tension, which was supposedly special and the key to it's great tone or whatever. I thought we were all on the same page - that it's not possible to determine the tension at which a pickup was wound?

The only way I could see this happening, is if they did experimental winding in which they charted the wire thickness around the turns at different tension levels - and then measured the wire thickness around the turns on a wound pickup and compared it to their chart...somehow accounting for I.D. and O.D. differences as well.

So, what gives? What do you guys think about this?

[copperheadroads]

I thought we were all on the same page - that it's not possible to determine the tension at which a pickup was wound?

The only way I could see this happening, is if they did experimental winding in which they charted the wire thickness around the turns at different tension levels - and then measured the wire thickness around the turns on a wound pickup and compared it to their chart...somehow accounting for I.D. and O.D. differences as well.

So, what gives? What do you guys think about this?

Are you suggesting it's not possible to determine the tension of an existing pickup without knowing how it was wound ?

[rhgwynn]

Once you wind it, the copper is going to relax. Any tension that was there will cease to be. It's the nature of the metal. Sure you can tell, oh this was wound loosely or, this was wound pretty tight from a visual examination; but I have my doubts about being able to put an actual number on it.

[copperheadroads]

Once you wind it, the copper is going to relax. Any tension that was there will cease to be. It's the nature of the metal. Sure you can tell, oh this was wound loosely or, this was wound pretty tight from a visual examination; but I have my doubts about being able to put an actual number on it.

How do you measure tension ?
Do you have an accurate way of measuring grams of tension ,or is it the "Feel" / handwound way of doing it ? .

[David Schwab]

Lots of people make lots of claims about a lot of things. Why does it matter anyway?

I don't think anyone can know what the tension was other than it's lose or tight. And if it's been wax potted, then what? It's all stuck together.

[rhgwynn]

How do you measure tension ?
Do you have an accurate way of measuring grams of tension ,or is it the "Feel" / handwound way of doing it ? .

For me it's just a feel. I don't have a tension measurement device.

I'm not going to call anybody out, but I have seen claims ny sellers specifically referring to discovering the winding tension of an examined vintage pickup. I was under the impression that this was not possible to determine, except to a rough estimate (loose vs tight). Thinking about it, if I were to attempt such discovery, the method I previously mentioned is how I would go about it.

Another thing is claims of metallurgical analysis. Don't samples get destroyed in the process? I'm not sure if they can get the alloy composition with non-destructive testing or not. But would you really destroy vintage pickup magnets to get such information when the research has already been done (by Seymour Duncan) and published in a book?

[David Schwab]

Another thing is claims of metallurgical analysis. Don't samples get destroyed in the process? I'm not sure if they can get the alloy composition with non-destructive testing or not. But would you really destroy vintage pickup magnets to get such information when the research has already been done (by Seymour Duncan) and published in a book?

Yes, it does gets destroyed. Or at least you need to cut a piece off of the sample. Think of it this way; if you wanted to recreate an old pickup, right down to the alloy in the screws, magnets, etc, it would make sense to sacrifice at least part of one of those screws, etc. Then you will have new parts made, and you can replace the one you destroyed. The knowledge of the pickup is worth more than the pickup in this case.

Pickup makers do indeed do this. I have a bag of humbucker screws that were made this way by some of the members here.

Getting back to the tension, I thought we decided in another thread that no one uses that as part of the formula. Think about it, everyone wants to wind a good coil. You don't want it too lose, or too tight, where you can stretch the wire. So why wouldn't vintage pickups be wound well?

[rhgwynn]

Getting back to the tension, I thought we decided in another thread that no one uses that as part of the formula. Think about it, everyone wants to wind a good coil. You don't want it too lose, or too tight, where you can stretch the wire. So why wouldn't vintage pickups be wound well?

I thought so too, but apparently for them it (tension) became a selling point, because they claim it was one if the keys to the vintage pickup's tone which they were attemting to replicate.

[kayakerca]

I'm not going to call anybody out, but I have seen claims ny sellers specifically referring to discovering the winding tension of an examined vintage pickup. . .

Another thing is claims of metallurgical analysis. . .

Why do you care about a pickup makers claims? Seriously? Call somebody out? ? ? You think they are taking business away from you? What, do you think these claims on winder websites have not been substantiated by the owner of that winding business?

This look familiar to you Rob?
........................................................ ............................
Vintage Spec Single-Coil Pickups

Choose from a number of Vintage Pickup types. Available as singles or save money and buy a full set.
Order a matching set, or mix and match specifications to create your own unique sound.

1954 ~ 7956t CW 5.76k A5 North
1955 ~ 7844t CW 5.89k A5 North
1956 ~ 8012t CW 5.98k A5 North
1957 ~ 8105t CW 6.02k A5 North
1958 ~ 8350t CW 6.20k A5 South
1959 ~ 7925t CW 5.95k A5 South
1960 ~ 8293t CW 6.33k A5 South
1961 ~ 8119t CW 6.19k A5 South
1962 ~ 8220t CW 6.22k A5 South
1963 ~ 8319t CW 6.37k A5 South
1964 ~ 7980t CW 6.25k A5 South
1965 ~ 7626t CW 5.80k A5 South
1966 ~ 7630t CW 5.76k A5 South
1967 ~ 7656t CW 5.88k A5 South
........................................................ ............................

I think all newbie winders such as myself have seen this on the internet and through resources on this site. And yeessssss, this is a "cut & paste" from your website giving the appearance of factual knowledge, letting the site visitor deduce that this is a claim of substantiated accuracy by the business owning the website (well at least to me it is, in my opinion). What, did you yourself (or some other expert you paid) tear each and every one of those EXPENSIVE to acquire original Fender pickups apart to verify the accuracy of the specs? Really? Did you?

Yes, we've seen the metallurgical claims and such. Yes, I use data from those sites along with a lot of other data. Why not just do what the rest of the "non (super) techie" winders do, assemble as much info as you can, believe of it what you will, test the crap out of it, go for it, and don't tell the lies you would suggest others are telling us. The product in the hands of players will tell the story for you. If they're happy, you should be happy.

Hope my spelling and grammar isn't too far off this morning. I hate having to go in and clean up all manner of inaccuracies and deficiencies in things I post on the internet.

I'm hungry, must be time for breakfast.

[jason lollar]

"But would you really destroy vintage pickup magnets to get such information when the research has already been done (by Seymour Duncan) and published in a book?"
yes one way is to destroy a small; piece- I wouldnt rely on anything published as far as specs- there is so much BS that has been published over and over since the 1970's- it keeps getting copied from book to book and even- well look at some of the charts on the net like vintage fender pickup specs- alot of them are way off. The cool thing about the internet is anyone can make a comment- the bad thing about the internet is anyone can make a comment

[Durrant Pickups]

what grinds my gears is like Jason states there is alot of BS out there you either choose to read it and accept it without experimenting or you choose to read it and try to prove it right or wrong. I find it interesting that so many people rightly or wrongly believe there is a set recipe for some sort of master "tone" in reality all materials vary, all guitars vary, all playing styles vary and most importantly all ears vary. You may hear a tone that you think is horrid yet someone loves that particular sound. Back to the point though whether people write up about there voodoo methods or secret tension recipes what really matters is what you are doing in your workshop and as Jim said if your customers or you are happy what does it matter what everyone else says. Leo fender and Seth lover and all the others that we all know had an idea in there head and went with it with what was laying around at the time.

[David Schwab]

I find it interesting that so many people rightly or wrongly believe there is a set recipe for some sort of master "tone"

Plus, that implies that there is only one correct tone for any one style guitar! Maybe it was like that back in the early 60s, but not anymore. Thank goodness.

[rhgwynn]

Why do you care about a pickup makers claims? Seriously? Call somebody out? ? ? You think they are taking business away from you? What, do you think these claims on winder websites have not been substantiated by the owner of that winding business?

I think all newbie winders such as myself have seen this on the internet and through resources on this site. And yeessssss, this is a "cut & paste" from your website giving the appearance of factual knowledge, letting the site visitor deduce that this is a claim of substantiated accuracy by the business owning the website (well at least to me it is, in my opinion). What, did you yourself (or some other expert you paid) tear each and every one of those EXPENSIVE to acquire original Fender pickups apart to verify the accuracy of the specs? Really? Did you?

Yes, we've seen the metallurgical claims and such. Yes, I use data from those sites along with a lot of other data. Why not just do what the rest of the "non (super) techie" winders do, assemble as much info as you can, believe of it what you will, test the crap out of it, go for it, and don't tell the lies you would suggest others are telling us. The product in the hands of players will tell the story for you. If they're happy, you should be happy.

Hope my spelling and grammar isn't too far off this morning. I hate having to go in and clean up all manner of inaccuracies and deficiencies in things I post on the internet.

I'm hungry, must be time for breakfast.

I don't think anyone is taking business from me, I do ok on my own. There is fact, and also a lot of mystery and variance in pickup making. I do my best, but you won't see me selling based on a secret sauce. I get your point on the data chart, and it has given me pause to think. People rarely ever want something to match it, because I do explain to them that, with other data - you can see that specs are really all over the place. Be them correct or not, you might as well throw three darts at it and call it. Then they opt go the more personalized route and in the end are happy to have something they can call their own because no one else will have their sound. I've had great results so, yes I am happy.

"But would you really destroy vintage pickup magnets to get such information when the research has already been done (by Seymour Duncan) and published in a book?"
yes one way is to destroy a small; piece- I wouldnt rely on anything published as far as specs- there is so much BS that has been published over and over since the 1970's- it keeps getting copied from book to book and even- well look at some of the charts on the net like vintage fender pickup specs- alot of them are way off. The cool thing about the internet is anyone can make a comment- the bad thing about the internet is anyone can make a comment

I agree there is a lot of BS, but the published information I was referring to is an internal document of analysis done at/by Seymour Duncan - which I would like to think can be trusted. If anyone wants to see it I'll send you the link to the book, which you can read on Scribd for free.

You said that a lot of available charts are way off - in what respect? The way I've come to understand it - and tell me if I'm misinformed - is that they were always wound to a certain turn-count (I guess whatever Leo thought was best at the time?), and what you got for output was what you got.

what grinds my gears is like Jason states there is alot of BS out there you either choose to read it and accept it without experimenting or you choose to read it and try to prove it right or wrong. I find it interesting that so many people rightly or wrongly believe there is a set recipe for some sort of master "tone" in reality all materials vary, all guitars vary, all playing styles vary and most importantly all ears vary. You may hear a tone that you think is horrid yet someone loves that particular sound. Back to the point though whether people write up about there voodoo methods or secret tension recipes what really matters is what you are doing in your workshop and as Jim said if your customers or you are happy what does it matter what everyone else says. Leo fender and Seth lover and all the others that we all know had an idea in there head and went with it with what was laying around at the time.

I always take things with a grain of salt, and you're right - there is no master recipe for tone. It's very personal and subjective, and for a musician - a part of their very identity. I try to remember that with every single pickup I wind.

[Durrant Pickups]

If you want the most accurate information on pickups the most trusted source would have to be the comments on any Seymour Duncan Facebook post some really solid info with lots of deep background study

[jason lollar]

You said that a lot of available charts are way off - in what respect? The way I've come to understand it - and tell me if I'm misinformed - is that they were always wound to a certain turn-count (I guess whatever Leo thought was best at the time?), and what you got for output was what you got.

I have seen alot of specs where the turn counts were wrong or the wire gauge was wrong, wire insulation type wrong, wrong magnet type and maybe possibly the wrong specs attached to the wrong pickup- hard to say sometimes. I looked for one in particular that was up on the net for years- vintage fender pickup specs where most of the steel guitar pickups were way off. Couldnt find it though, maybe it was taken down. i would be cautious of the source even if its in a book if it matters. Seymours company will have plenty of good specs