Is it broken beyond repair?

[kayakerca]

Thanks for the tips, Andrew Nasty little things, aren't they? There has to be a way to handle knives and still have your fingers in playing conditiong...

That's a good plan for using neos with a vice. I'd be happier with something to buffer the magnets from sucking the pickup into its grip. Small fabric cushions, perhaps, so I can squeeze the pickup between them.
Do you have a method for timing the speed at which you pass them through? I'm taking about 2-3 seconds per pass.

Not to stir the pot, but one thing to keep in mind when using the "magnetize in a vice" technique is that if you are magnetizing pickups with rod magnets that are not all the same height (e.g. Strat style staggered), the shorter rods will have significantly less magnetic charge than the taller ones. This will affect how the pickup sounds.

[Possum]

You cant' tell any alnico from any others with gauss readings, "pull" or anything else. I have alnico 5 that won't charge over 550 gauss, which is about the same charge most alnico 2 and 4 charge to. Alnico 3 is supposedly the weakest yet I have some that will charge to 700 gauss. The only way to know which is which is not lose the label for the magnets when you buy them that tells what alnico you bought.
Gauss meters are very useful, real magnetizers are too, but expect to pay around $500 for a good DC gaussmeter and $600 or more for a magnetizer. Neo magnetizing isn't as good as an AC magnetizer that turns on and off and charges simultaneously to both poles for even magnetizing. With neo's you mostly end up with one pole charged higher than the other which is ok for single coils but for buckers its better to have an even charge on both poles.

[the great waldo]

Hi Kayakerca

I would think if the neo magnets field is strong enough the alnico would be more than enough to saturate the smaller alnicos. I would assume that alnico will only charge so far up to it's saturation level and no more. I'm no expert on magnetism so maybe one of our learned contributors can chirp in an opinion.
Cheers

Andrew

Not to stir the pot, but one thing to keep in mind when using the "magnetize in a vice" technique is that if you are magnetizing pickups with rod magnets that are not all the same height (e.g. Strat style staggered), the shorter rods will have significantly less magnetic charge than the taller ones. This will affect how the pickup sounds.

[the great waldo]

You cant' tell any alnico from any others with gauss readings, "pull" or anything else. I have alnico 5 that won't charge over 550 gauss, which is about the same charge most alnico 2 and 4 charge to. Alnico 3 is supposedly the weakest yet I have some that will charge to 700 gauss. The only way to know which is which is not lose the label for the magnets when you buy them that tells what alnico you bought.
Gauss meters are very useful, real magnetizers are too, but expect to pay around $500 for a good DC gaussmeter and $600 or more for a magnetizer. Neo magnetizing isn't as good as an AC magnetizer that turns on and off and charges simultaneously to both poles for even magnetizing. With neo's you mostly end up with one pole charged higher than the other which is ok for single coils but for buckers its better to have an even charge on both poles.

Hi Possum

Might one ask what you recommend or use as a gauss meter ?

Cheers

Andrew

[the great waldo]

Thanks for the tips, Andrew Nasty little things, aren't they? There has to be a way to handle knives and still have your fingers in playing conditiong...

That's a good plan for using neos with a vice. I'd be happier with something to buffer the magnets from sucking the pickup into its grip. Small fabric cushions, perhaps, so I can squeeze the pickup between them.
Do you have a method for timing the speed at which you pass them through? I'm taking about 2-3 seconds per pass.

Hi Nick

I don't use any timing, just pull them through a couple of times slowly. I do'nt think you will do any harm if you do it more times. I read somewhere that if you open the jaws of the vice with the neos while the pup or magnet is between them, fully, you get a more even charge on both ends of the magnet. seems logical. You would have to knock up a jig to hold the pup or magnet, but that might save some finger bashing. Any thing on the faces of the neos will help to save your fingers. Maybe some hard rubber or Moos Gummi (thats what they call it here in Austria, not sure what it is in English) would do the trick.
Cheers
Andrew

[kayakerca]

Hi Kayakerca

I would think if the neo magnets field is strong enough the alnico would be more than enough to saturate the smaller alnicos. I would assume that alnico will only charge so far up to it's saturation level and no more. I'm no expert on magnetism so maybe one of our learned contributors can chirp in an opinion.
Cheers

Andrew

Hi Andrew:

I use a pair of N42's that are 3" long, 1" wide and 1/2" thick in a special jig I built to hold the p/u. They are seriously dangerously strong! I also use spacers to control the level of charge I put on the p/u. I put the p/u in the holder and bring the charging N42's straight in at the p/u, then straight out. I added an image of the jig which will give you and idea of how I go at it (hopefully the image posted). If I use the spacers to get a charge of, say, ~ 10,500 mT to 11,500 mT on the D and G rod magnets of a set of A5's, the charge in the A and B will be in the +/- 8,000 mT range which is not acceptable to me. If I reduce the spacer thickness, everything goes up proportionately. I have another technique to bring the lower charge levels up to where I want them to be. In my newbie (very) limited hobbyist type experience, the difference in height of a set of rod magnets in a staggered Strat style p/u will never give the same gauss level if you just run the p/u between a pair of N42's as you will never be able to get the N42's the same distance from the A and B as you will to the D an G rod magnets on the top side is on the top side of the pickup.

[Possum]

A strong neo will surely saturate an alnico magnet, but if you're using it on one side, it pulls all the domains on that side in a strong charge, then you move the magnet to the other side and it pulls them all that way and the other side loses its charge to that same pull, so you only really end up getting a full charge on one side. If you are charging with 2 neos from both sides by sliding an alnico in between them, it will work only with alnico 5 because A5 only charges directionally. If you slide an A3, A2, A4 through a strong neo field from two sides, the charge on the magnet will follow the direction as you pull out of the charging magnet fields, so with a bar magnet, one end would probably be charged higher than the other end because it was the last part to slide thru the charging field. This is because those grades of alnico can be charged from any direction, you can even charge them with NS poles on the ends instead of the sides. If you charge with 2 neos you would have to somehow anchor the magnet being charged in the center, bring the 2 neos in to touch and charge then pull them both away at the identical speed and distance, away from the magnet being charged. With a charger, the charging field is only on when you push a button, so both sides are getting energized at the same time equally then the charge is shut off. In reality a bar magnet doesn't really charge identically on each side, but its better to use a real charger that will completely saturate the magnet in one bang. The alnico will charge up hot but it will gradually level off from that, or you can push a ceramic opposing magnet at each pole gently to level the charge or degauss it to whatever level you want, but being sure to also touch the attracting side of the ceramic back to each pole to balance the sorta rebound effect to stabilize it. If you just push a ceramic opposing one pole you'll read the charge being dropped, but after a couple of minutes it will recover some and read higher.

I use an Alpha Lab DC Magnetometer, pricey but they are a good company and have been around for awhile. It has the Hall sensor on a long lead so you can take measurements off magnets in tight places. There's a few other gaussmeters that are good, just be sure its a DC gaussmeter capable of reading over 2200 gauss. Mine can actually read the Earth's gauss field.

[Mike Sulzer]

A strong neo will surely saturate an alnico magnet, but if you're using it on one side, it pulls all the domains on that side in a strong charge, then you move the magnet to the other side and it pulls them all that way and the other side loses its charge to that same pull, so you only really end up getting a full charge on one side.

Magnetic domains are groups of atoms; they are not pulled around by a magnetic field; the magnetic moments of all the atoms in a domain point in the same direction, and this direction can be changed by applying a strong magnetic field.

From Wikipedia:

A magnetic domain is a region within a magnetic material which has uniform magnetization. This means that the individual magnetic moments of the atoms are aligned with one another and they point in the same direction. When cooled below a temperature called the Curie temperature, the magnetization of a piece of ferromagnetic material spontaneously divides into many small regions called magnetic domains. The magnetization within each domain points in a uniform direction, but the magnetization of different domains may point in different directions. Magnetic domain structure is responsible for the magnetic behavior of ferromagnetic materials like iron, nickel, cobalt and their alloys, ferrites etc. such as the formation of permanent magnets.

The purpose of magnetization is to get the domains to line up. If the domains on one side are lined up, applying a strong field pointing in the same direction on the other side does not cause the domains on the first side to lose alignment.

[Possum]

Whatever..... the point is that if you charge from one side with a strong neo the charge all goes to one side that you're charging from, moving the neo to the other side pulls all the charge to that side, its not a good method....

[kayakerca]

Whatever..... the point is that if you charge from one side with a strong neo the charge all goes to one side that you're charging from, moving the neo to the other side pulls all the charge to that side, its not a good method....

Who's Whatever? ? ?

I mount the p/u in the gig and bring a pair of N42's in from both side simultaneously, spaced from the p/u's to produce the gauss level I'm looking for.

[Possum]

It works as long as you pull the charging magnets away in a straight line both at the same time at same rate, if one pulls away quicker the other side will charge higher, if you pull the magnet being charged away by sliding them sideways away from the charging magnet the charge will be in the direction following the the charging magnets at the further point sideways where the field last had enough effect to charge if you are charing A2, A3, A4, if its A5 you can get away with it, but if you pull a charging magnet across the face of the magnet you're won't get much of a charge since this is also a way to degauss alnico. You just can't beat an actual magnet charger where the field is only on as long as you hold the switch down. They run around $650 when I bought mine 7 years ago. This is the best one for pickup makers and the one I have, it will charge C8 ceramics as well and fully charge any grade of alnico:
Gaussmeter, Magnetizer and Pole Finders - Master Magnetics, Inc.

[David Schwab]

Whatever..... the point is that if you charge from one side with a strong neo the charge all goes to one side that you're charging from, moving the neo to the other side pulls all the charge to that side, its not a good method....

Use two neos, one on each side. That's what I do. They charge nice and even.

[kayakerca]

It works as long as you pull the charging magnets away in a straight line both at the same time at same rate,

That's how I have been doing it and I suppose it is subject to the limit of how well you can judge the feel of the force of the magnets as you pull them away from the Alnico's.

You just can't beat an actual magnet charger where the field is only on as long as you hold the switch down. They run around $650 when I bought mine 7 years ago. This is the best one for pickup makers and the one I have, it will charge C8 ceramics as well and fully charge any grade of alnico:
Gaussmeter, Magnetizer and Pole Finders - Master Magnetics, Inc.

Certainly not a tool for the hobbyist type winder.

Does that magnetizer allow for regulating the level charge put on the Alnico's?

[Mike Sulzer]

Whatever..... the point is that if you charge from one side with a strong neo the charge all goes to one side that you're charging from, moving the neo to the other side pulls all the charge to that side, its not a good method....

All the charge? It does not. The first thing to change is using the word "charge" for magnetization. It implies all the wrong things. The understanding of scientific and technical things must proceed from the basics, not backwards from confused terminology.

[Possum]

Mike, terminology just gets in the way for me, I'm not a "word" guy, I'm not totally reliant on technological theories and methods, though I did popularize the use of LCR meters here on the forum long before anyone had interest in them, Joe Gwinn helped me learn how to use it....but that said, I don't use mine hardly at all now except to measure capacitors. I'm more of a mechanic experimenter, I used all the tech gear to gain understanding then mostly left it behind because it doesn't tell you very much in the end, it doesn't tell you how to make anything. Experiments tell you if something works, but they won't tell you WHY they work, nor will technical gear. For instance, you change out the keeper in a bucker, or change out any of the magnetic circuit parts as a unit, and the pickup goes dark for a day. You change a tone cap in your guitar and you have to wait a day before it settles down, new coils always sound dark the first day. I have my own theories why this happens, but it doesn't matter really anyway, what matters is to know it happens and to expect it, these are repeatable effects and probably no one is going to figure out exactly whats doing it and is probably a combination of many things.

If you charge a magnet on both side of a humbucker bar with a real strong neo like I used to use to, a big block that is dangerously strong, it always puts the hottest charge on the one side you're charging, it pulls everything in that direction, so no of course not you're not going to haver zero gauss on one side and 750 gauss on the other. My point is that its not a good way to charge magnets. I too, tried using 2 neo's in a vise and it failed to work very well, especially charging alnico magnets I had made for my DeArmond singles, that are only 1/4" thick bars in alnico 2. Never could get an even charge no matter what I did, they hold maybe a 240 gauss charge at best. The magnetizer unit charges those things beautifully. And yes its beyond what a hobbyist needs. My magnetizer really doesn't do well hooked up to a Variac, the best method I found is to buy a jeweler's degmagnetizing table off Ebay and use that on a Variac and you can get pretty even levels of degaussing, but I don't use that anymore either. There is this little magnetizer on Ebay, I thought of buying one and putting some thick iron posts in it to act as charging shoes but I don't know what level of strength this thing has, might be a waste of money:
High Strength Magnetizer Remagnetizer Physics Magnetism | eBay