Mismatched coil

[Marco78]

Hi, in the paf style pickups what is the "usable" mismatch between two bobbins? from 100 to 1000 turns?

[copperheadroads]

It depends on the tone your after .

[LtKojak]

Hi, in the paf style pickups what is the "usable" mismatch between two bobbins? from 100 to 1000 turns?

The PAF design calls for no coil offset. The offsets found in the different samples was due to no quality control whatsoever. At the time, a p'up was a p'up, was a p'up. The only "quality control" was to make sure it worked.

HTH,

[Marco78]

It depends on the tone your after .

Ok, I'm speaking of "usable" tone, no for specific tone. I know how the tone change, but it isn't this question. If I read "heavly mismatched coil" what do it mean? 1000 turn? more? less?

The PAF design calls for no coil offset. The offsets found in the different samples was due to no quality control whatsoever. At the time, a p'up was a p'up, was a p'up. The only "quality control" was to make sure it worked.

HTH,

Yes, I know, but probably no one PAF have the same turns on bobbins.

[Zhangliqun]

Ok, I'm speaking of "usable" tone, no for specific tone. I know how the tone change, but it isn't this question. If I read "heavly mismatched coil" what do it mean? 1000 turn? more? less?

You're asking us to give objective absolute definitions to subjective, relative terms. One winder might consider 100 turns heavy, another might consider 500 turns light. Even the same winder (me in particular, there are likely others) might consider the same turn disparity heavy or light depending on the particular humbucker design.

Thus they are all usable and we end up back at copperhead's answer that it depends on the sound you're after. The only way you can get an answer that works for you is direct experience.

[Marco78]

But exist a limit beyond which the hum became too high, and sound more like a single coil than like a humbucker. Is this limit about 1000 turns?

[LtKojak]

But exist a limit beyond which the hum became too high, and sound more like a single coil than like a humbucker. Is this limit about 1000 turns?

Nobody can answer that, Marco. For the record, there's no such thing as a "limit". The effect of the coil offset is not to be measured in turns, but in %, as everything changes depending on the wire's gauge. 1000 turns with #42AWG is quite a lot, where the same amount of #44AWG is almost nothing.

IME, a 3% offset is the max I'd go without getting the p'up's design out of whack. But hey! I'm no pro p'up winder, mind you.

I'm a tinkerer, the one that fixes good-functioning stuff until it breaks, then fixes some more until it works!

[Marco78]

Yes, speaking of % is more accurate, but for semplicity I have speak of turn and 42 awg. 3% in my opinion is nothing, some builder use a % near to 20% for heavy scatterwind.

PS: I have send you a pm.

[Jim Shine]

This is were trial and error come into play. Plus investing a few bucks in some wire that may get tossed. Most of us have screwed around with various offsets and configurations coming up with our ideal sounds (in our heads anyway). You really should do the same. Then you will understand what is going on with experience, not just theory.

Come up with some test mules. Label bobbins and start taking notes of what is going on. Your turns, tension, wire gauge, cooled ohms readings, etc. Come up with is most appealing for you. Just about anything is possible with the old ones. But not every old one sounded great because of just that.

[David King]

I'd suggest that there are more players interested in a pickup that is hum free than one that has some undefinable tone supremacy. I'd be really surprised if offset coils were the only way to get to tone nirvana.

[Mike Sulzer]

I'd suggest that there are more players interested in a pickup that is hum free than one that has some undefinable tone supremacy. I'd be really surprised if offset coils were the only way to get to tone nirvana.

Circuit theory suggest that coil imbalance is not a very strong way to alter the tone. The two coils go in series, and so to the first order the circuit is determined by the sum of the two inductances resonating with the cable capacitance, and the Q is determined by resistive losses and eddy currents. Making the two inductances different does not give any new frequency responses. Looking a bit deeper, we have two effects:

1. There are secondary resonances formed by each inductor with its coil capacitance. But these resonances are above the range of a guitar speaker and not of much significance.

2. If you mismatch the coils, the signals from the two different string locations have their relative amplitudes altered. This affects how different string harmonics are reinforced/diminished. I suspect that this is most of the audible effect, but it really is not very big because you do not change the relative amplitudes by very much.

If you made a humbucker with three coils in series, narrower coils, I would think, you would have more control over how the signal from different string locations add while still keeping good hum cancellation.

Or you could continue to use two coils wound the same, but use little neos on each pole piece. You could use stronger magnets on the poles of one coil than the other and vary the signal addition in this way.

[Marco78]

I'm not an expert, but honestly in this forum I read a lot of exaggeration:

1. The type of wire don't influence the sound, so poly pickups is the same of plain enamel pickups.
2. Polished magnets sound the same of rough cast
3. Mismatching coil isn't important.

So pratically the only thing that is important are the resistance of pickups. So a chinese pickups with 7 kohm and alnico V sound the same like a old paf that measures 7 ohm...

But anyone that have "hear" some pickups know that all this 3 point are important for a sound of pickup.

[Mike Sulzer]

So pratically the only thing that is important are the resistance of pickups. So a chinese pickups with 7 kohm and alnico V sound the same like a old paf that measures 7 ohm...

You are joking, right? If not, you have missed the most fundamental factor in pickup sound: the frequency response. A critical issue is the resonance formed with the coil inductance and the cable capacitance. Changing the number of turns changes the inductance, and hence the sound. But you knew this. Of course you could not really be so confident if you did not know the basics.

[LtKojak]

I'm not an expert, but honestly in this forum I read a lot of exaggeration:

Ok, let's hear it.

1. The type of wire don't influence the sound, so poly pickups is the same of plain enamel pickups.

That is correct. It's not the TYPE, but the THICKNESS of the coating that matters. Not all PE wire is the made the same, nor its Poly.

If you could make PE and POLY exactly of the same thickness, you won't be able to tell the difference of two coils wound with the same TPL, number of turns and coil geometry.

2. Polished magnets sound the same of rough cast

The difference about roughcast and polished is because of the RECIPE used to make both, not because of the finishing. You will also find big differences in sound with the same grade of Alnico AND the same finishing (roughcast, fx) just from different manufacturers.

3. Mismatching coil isn't important.

Let me rephrase this: Why do YOU think is SO important? What do you think it actually does?

So pratically the only thing that is important are the resistance of pickups. So a chinese pickups with 7 kohm and alnico V sound the same like a old paf that measures 7 ohm...

DC readings don't mean anything. Mever have, never will.

But anyone that have "hear" some pickups know that all this 3 point are important for a sound of pickup.

Marco, a hb p'up's sonic outcome is the result of the interaction of so many variables that's almost impossible to determine what everything does. Plus, there are many things happening inside a p'up that affect the sound that can't be measured because there are no instruments, no processes and no standards to measure'em.

Remember: "Not everything that can be measured counts, and not everything that counts can be measured".

Seymour Duncan, together with his chief engineer, Kevin Beller, have developed a computer controlled, forensic test and measuring environment capable to take a "sonic footprint" of a pickup that allow to replicate it afterwards. It's been used to make the "Pearly Gates", "Slashs" and "Joe Bonamassas", just to name a few. That tone footprint is an ensemble of parameters that can be mathematically altered in order to make a copy with the materials and processes available. If they have something like it, WHY do you think the testing is done by REAL PEOPLE with REAL EARS before signing off to production? Because you can predict math, but not a p'ups behaviour.

Trial-and-error is the only way to actually MAKE a p'up. All the ones that think otherwise are clearly in error, believe it or not.

HTH,

[big_teee]

I'm not an expert, but honestly in this forum I read a lot of exaggeration:

1. The type of wire don't influence the sound, so poly pickups is the same of plain enamel pickups.
2. Polished magnets sound the same of rough cast
3. Mismatching coil isn't important.

So pratically the only thing that is important are the resistance of pickups. So a chinese pickups with 7 kohm and alnico V sound the same like a old paf that measures 7 ohm...

But anyone that have "hear" some pickups know that all this 3 point are important for a sound of pickup.

Wind pickups and test them til you come up with what you like.
If you like it that is all that is important.
That is what most of us do here.
As far as offset, I have wound them many ways.
I like the neck pickup to have no offset.
I like a mild offset on bridge humbuckers, a few percent more on the slug bobbin.
Vary the tone by how many turns, and the gauge of the wire.
If you get your offset too big then your bridge pickup will be noisy, especially with overwound humbuckers.
All of statements above, are strictly IMO!
Good Luck,
T
As