What the...how long was I asleep? Pickup output ratings

[Mark Hammer]

Flipping through latest issue of Vintage Guitar, I see a little blurb about these DiMarzio "Illuminator" pickups, co-developed with John Petrucci. But what really captures my attention is an output spec of 410mv. Huh? So I go to the DiMarzio site and I see all of their pickups are now rated in terms of output in millivolts. I'm not disputing the numbers, and most certainly not disputing the relative ratings. But just when did the industry establish a consensual methodology for measuring pickup output? I looked on their site but I have absolutely NO IDEA how these voltages are measured, so I can't compare them to anybody, only to other DiMarzios. I look at Duncan's site and I don't see output ratings. So how the dickens do the DiMarzios compare to the Duncans? I don't know, and I can't tell.

This is not a criticism of the ratings themselves (and like I say, if they are using consistent methodology, the relative ratings are meaningful), but under what circumstances are they obtained? Is this a power chord? single notes? a 10-through-46 string set? a 9-through-52 set? Slammed? Strummed normally? In the neck position? In the bridge position? With a 500k volume pot or direct to the voltmeter? Any of these could be a viable methodology...if only we knew and everybody spec'd their pickups the exact same way.

But like I say, I may have been asleep at the switch and several companies DID agree on some methodology to index output level, analogous to the way that speaker efficiency is measured on-axis, from 1 metre away, using 1W of power applied to the speaker, and indexed in terms of the sound pressure level produced, in decibels.

[Mike Sulzer]

The interesting question is why they think that publishing output ratings will sell more pickups.

[ken]

Oh joy, new fresh ad corquesniffery!

This is not a criticism of the ratings themselves (and like I say, if they are using consistent methodology, the relative ratings are meaningful), but under what circumstances are they obtained? Is this a power chord? single notes? a 10-through-46 string set? a 9-through-52 set? Slammed? Strummed normally? In the neck position? In the bridge position? With a 500k volume pot or direct to the voltmeter? Any of these could be a viable methodology...if only we knew and everybody spec'd their pickups the exact same way.

The interesting question is why they think that publishing output ratings will sell more pickups.

Don't you just love ads that use unquantifiable measurements to sell stuff? Publishing output ratings for pickups without a repeatable measurement is a lot like publishing output ratings for hifi amps... before the industry finally standardized on RMS measurements. An example - was 100 watts music power or EIA power more or less useable power than 100 watts RMS?

Unfortunately, there are those who think 'bigger/faster/louder... must be better'. I can see the new ads now... 'the new ABCXYZ Super Devastator pickup puts out .0005 millivolts ***MORE*** than the Illuminator!' This sorta reminds me of a B52 amp ad for some reason. I wonder why.

ken

[Mark Hammer]

I wasn't trying to be cynical. I'm a measurement guy in my professional life, and that means that I find the way things are measured every bit as important as what the resulting measurements are. Again, I have no quarrel with Dimarzio's addition of this quantification of their pickups, and if one happens to be a loyal purchaser of DiMarzio products, the relative ratings will likely give one some modest insight into what to expect from model A vs B vs C. But will those measurements tell me how a given DiMarzio product compares to a non-DiMarzio product? Would I be disappointed in my purchase choice? Would the pickup overdrive my amp at the slightest strum? Would it NEVER overdrive the amp? I have no idea unless I know how the measurements were done. And I haven't seen how they were done, or have any idea whether others are using a similar method.

I put "how long was I asleep?" in the subject heading because I simoply didn't know whether some consortium had come to an agreement and standard without me being aware of it. If there IS a new standard for such measurements, great. If there is NO such standard, then that is likely to provoke cynicism.

Incidentally, what I find so perplexing is the specificity of the ratings. It's not like they are graded in terms of, say, 100mv ranges (e.g., a 5-star system of <200mv, 201-300, 301-400, 401-500, >500) that would depend on strumming/picking strength, but are spec'd right down to the millivolt. If there is any cork-sniffing to be done, I suppose it would be amongst those who might naively think that there is an audible difference between a 420mv and 430mv rating.

[SkinnyWire]

The "output" spec has been listed on their site for as long as I can remember. That said, I agree that it begs the question of how they go about it to ensure consistency, etc.

[ken]

I have no quarrel with Dimarzio's addition of this quantification of their pickups, and if one happens to be a loyal purchaser of DiMarzio products, the relative ratings will likely give one some modest insight into what to expect from model A vs B vs C. But will those measurements tell me how a given DiMarzio product compares to a non-DiMarzio product? Would I be disappointed in my purchase choice? Would the pickup overdrive my amp at the slightest strum? Would it NEVER overdrive the amp? I have no idea unless I know how the measurements were done. And I haven't seen how they were done, or have any idea whether others are using a similar method.

This is exactly what I was trying to say. If you publish figures without showing exactly how they were achieved, the figures might sound good to some but in reality become meaningless marketing-speak. Were these measured in a guitar actually being played or in a test bank? If this was pickup was measured in a guitar, how motivated/interested/errr...'caffeinated' was the guitar's player during the tests? How was this pickup output measured - was the pickup paralled to a 500K resistor and output measured by a measurement capable scope of some kind? Or was the pickup just measured by clipping a meter to the leads and holding a tuning fork over it? How far over the pickup was the tuning fork held? Who knows?

Incidentally, what I find so perplexing is the specificity of the ratings. It's not like they are graded in terms of, say, 100mv ranges (e.g., a 5-star system of <200mv, 201-300, 301-400, 401-500, >500) that would depend on strumming/picking strength, but are spec'd right down to the millivolt. If there is any cork-sniffing to be done, I suppose it would be amongst those who might naively think that there is an audible difference between a 420mv and 430mv rating.

For me, this is the best part. No matter how hard we try to make them consistently, pickups are individuals. Why? Because they are made by humans using parts made by other humans. If you have a new pickup of this model that measures 450mv, is this pickup according to the maker bad... or good? Is the same pickup measuring 375 mv bad... or good?

Unfortunately, there are those who think 'bigger/faster/louder... must be better'. I can see the new ads now... 'the new ABCXYZ Super Devastator pickup puts out .0005 millivolts ***MORE*** than the Illuminator!' This sorta reminds me of a B52 amp ad for some reason. I wonder why.

I never had to quote myself before...

ken

[big_teee]

I would think Customers use the MV ratings to compare one to another to get an idea if it is a Low Medium or High output pickup.
Really not a bad idea.
IMO The Company your talking about, does a lot of dealing with Young Metal players.
Here is a chart that shows their different pickups with output.
http://music-electronics-forum.com/a...uick_guide.pdf
T

[David Schwab]

I would think Customers use the MV ratings to compare one to another to get an idea if it is a Low Medium or High output pickup.
Really not a bad idea.

It's as relevant as listing DC resistance. It's all relative if you don't know what they are using as a baseline, but tells you which of their pickups are louder.

Back in the 70s, Bartolini had a chart showing the relative output of their pickups compared toothed brands. They explained how they did it, they used a mechanical picker, picking a high E string. By swapping out the pickups they could get consistent measurements.

In the case of Dimarzio, we have no idea how they are doing he measurement.

IMO The Company your talking about, does a lot of dealing with Young Metal players.
Here is a chart that shows their different pickups with output.
http://music-electronics-forum.com/a...uick_guide.pdf
T

A lot more than metal players. I think I install more DiMarzios in people's guitars than anything else. I was surprised about that.

[jason lollar]

I remember the MV always being listed - you must have just noticed but really how much output do you need? Particularly any more- its not like the Fender twin reverb is the most common pro amp around anymore
it is another spec that doesnt mean a hell of alot to most people that would be buying pickups but at least its an attempt to further describe the pickup in a quantitive way. I dont think we will ever be able to get by without words like spanky, sqwank, chimey, rotund, cut, thwack, sparkle, greazy, wispy, stanky......

[David Schwab]

...stanky......

"My, that pickup sounds downright stanky!"

[ken]

Gee... the dog was kinda wispy this morning...

I think we need a 'musician - English' dictionary for terms just like this. Even worse, sometimes musicians just can't agree on what terms actually mean.
One guy's 'smoky' is another's 'wispy'.

I'm a pickup maker - not a mind reader...

ken

[d. spree]

Gee... the dog was kinda wispy this morning...

I think we need a 'musician - English' dictionary for terms just like this. Even worse, sometimes musicians just can't agree on what terms actually mean.
One guy's 'smoky' is another's 'wispy'.

I'm a pickup maker - not a mind reader...

ken

But are you a wind (as in wined not winned) reader!

[jonson]

I think this guy could give us all the useable descriptions. Electric Guitars : Build an Electric Guitar Pickup - YouTube

[Mark Hammer]

A buddy of mine is a wine-writer (i.e., he writes about wine, not ON wine or WITH wine) - a REAL "cork sniffer". Some years ago, he published a book that explained the meaning of all the various wine-tasting terms (http://www.amazon.ca/Frugal-Oenophil.../dp/0968504655), and provided concrete reference points for all the terms included. We really need something like that for gear. I can't begin to count the number of times I read a gear review and I still have no idea about what something sounds like.

[David Schwab]

You know, no one was ever supposed to sniff a cork. The waiter hands someone the cork so you can examine it to see that the bottle hadn't been re-filled with cheap wine and resealed!