Turns Per Layer Question

[jrdamien]

How do some of you who hand wind (feed and tension the wire by hand) count the turns per layer? Do you count seconds? Move your hand really slow or fast to a rhythm you just "have down?" I'd be curious to know.

[Jim Darr]

How do some of you who hand wind (feed and tension the wire by hand) count the turns per layer? Do you count seconds? Move your hand really slow or fast to a rhythm you just "have down?" I'd be curious to know.

At best it is experience and patience that gets consistent results. "Hand Guided" overall tonal consistency is hard..."Hand Guided" consistent TPL is even harder. This is one of the reasons we see such inconsistent sounding examples from the golden era (50's & early 60's) of single coils.

With that said, since I have both auto-traverse and hand-guided machines, I might be able to give some guidance to hand guided winding.

When hand guiding I use a system I call the "Count Method" where I count to certain number for the length of the traverse then repeat as I reverse the traverse direction. This ONLY works at a constant RPM of the Spindle head. Let's say if I count to 10 at 100 RPM I get one TPL...if I count to 10 at 50 RPM I get a totally DIFFERENT TPL. Hand guided TPL accuracy is only a guess and, in my opinion & experience, can only really accurately achieved with an auto traverse machine. An auto traverse machine can be programmed and set up to produce a scatter. The scatter helps define some of the tonal qualities of the pickup.

Using the Count Method works as a guideline and each hand guided winder should develop their own system that works best for them. I've even used a metronome to help develop a pattern. The ultimate goal for the winder should be consistent tonal/sound results.

I got my first commercial winding machine in 1978 (a used COWECO Model W set up to hand guide) and to this day, even when I think I am doing everything the same, I get slightly varied results when hand guiding. Some of the inconsistency might have to do with tension (wire between the thumb and index finger) and the wire stretching. But in practice, hand guided results do seem to vary even among the most experienced.

Any other thoughts on Hand Guiding?

[David Schwab]

At best it is experience and patience that gets consistent results. "Hand Guided" overall tonal consistency is hard..."Hand Guided" consistent TPL is even harder. This is one of the reasons we see such inconsistent sounding examples from the golden era (50's & early 60's) of single coils.

Yep. I don't count turns per layer. But I have a fair idea of what I'm laying down.

[Jim Shine]

What I do is lay a contrasting color piece of paper under the area I am winding and watch the winds lay down. I try my best to lay the winds one after the other. I also keep an eye on the counter. By laying the winds as close to side by side as possible, it almost always gets me into the ideal TPL range I am looking for. You will learn that the way you hold the wire in relation to the guide makes a huge difference. A fraction of an inch one way and the winds will slightly jump around right and left. You have to find the sweet spot where the wire goes straight where you want it.

[John_H]

On my hand winder I have a wheel for the counter that's driven at a 10/1 ratio. It's easy to count the turns ten at a time on the decade wheel and lay the wire with decent consistency.

[David King]

I just watch my counter hundreds digit and time my passes for about 50tpl.

[big_teee]

I try to Wind high tpl on narrow bobbins, and small bobbins, like PAF bobbins, neck Tele, Strat micro blades.
I like to scatter some on tall, and larger bobbins, like strat, and Tele bridge bobbins
Depending on what sound your shooting for?
IMO, Winder Speed effects TPL, and if you wind fast you will get higher TPL for the same Traverse movement, vs. Winding Slow.
YMMV,
T

[Jim Darr]

IMO, Winder Speed effects TPL, and if you wind fast you will get higher TPL for the same Traverse movement, vs. Winding Slow.

T

Yes, I completely agree. This is exactly what I said earlier in this thread. Consistent speed is absolutely critical for hand guided TPL accuracy.

[Rick Turner]

Note that if you do lay down the turns right next to one another, you have a more compact coil with higher self distributed capacitance. I've got tables and tables of wire gauges and gear changes and cams for the CoWeCo that allows that...if so desired...with virtually any windable gauge. I don't bother. I found a pitch that gives me the results I like, and I stick with it.

[Bruce Johnson]

In reference to the TPL numbers, I built my winder as a direct mechanical auto-feed, using a leadscrew driven by a timing belt drive. I set it up to have a feed rate of 0.002"/spindle revolution. That makes a tight, compact coil like Rick's describing. I designed my machine so that I could adjust that feed rate by changing pulleys. But, I haven't found the need to change it so far. That 0.002/rev feed rate seems to work fine for any wire between #40 and #44; nice tight neat coils. So, I've stuck with it over the years.

I mention this for any of you who are designing your own auto-feed winders. That 0.002/rev feed rate is a good number to work with as the "tight coil" end of the range of adjustment that you build in. Obviously, faster feed rates than that will give you looser coils, if that's what you want. And feeding much slower than 0.002/rev will actually make the coils sloppier and less compact.

[mcgruff]

How do some of you who hand wind (feed and tension the wire by hand) count the turns per layer? Do you count seconds? Move your hand really slow or fast to a rhythm you just "have down?" I'd be curious to know.

If (like me) you're winding for yourself it doesn't matter. If you're aim is to experiment with subtly different flavours of the same basic design until you find "the one", inconsistency can actually be a good thing.

If you're trying to create a product and sell it, that's another matter.

[Jim Darr]

If (like me) you're winding for yourself it doesn't matter. If you're aim is to experiment with subtly different flavours of the same basic design until you find "the one", inconsistency can actually be a good thing.

If you're trying to create a product and sell it, that's another matter.

mcgruff,

I understand what you are saying and basically agree, but I look at it from a slightly different angle. Even if just winding for yourself, those inconsistencies are indeed very important, but only if you know how you arrived at a great formula. If you are just winding at random with no idea of pattern, TPL, tension, and all the other variables, how are you going to repeat it? How will you know what variable made it so good? You'd likely have to reverse engineer it, which is hard for a weekend winder to do!

And, like you say, "If you're trying to create a product and sell it, that's another matter", I completely agree that consistency is king.

Jim

[mcgruff]

The total number of turns of wire and the magnet strength are the main variables rather than any winding magic. I just try to keep a firm tension that won't stretch or break the wire and then go by instinct. Some layers will have many turns of wire; others will deliberately be more scattered. I'll probably choose to do more of one than the other depending on what I think I'm trying to achieve. My winder runs pretty slow so I'll have a rough idea how many turns of wire are going on each pass but I don't get too hung up on it.

[Jim Darr]

The total number of turns of wire and the magnet strength are the main variables rather than any winding magic.

Total number of turns and magnet strength are very important variables. I think there are several others that are just as important to consider. These are:

For Single Coils – magnet wire diameter, magnet wire insulation type & thickness, winding pattern & TPL, type of magnet (A3, A5, etc), magnet mass (diameter & height), magnet manufacturer, slight variances in bobbin height, final coil geometry due to varying degrees of scatter, winding tension, base plate thickness & type for Tele bridge pickups, cover material for Tele neck pickups, inductance, bobbin construction (fiber v molded), wax potting, etc.

For Double Coils the brew becomes even more complex - magnet wire diameter, magnet wire insulation type & thickness, winding pattern & TPL, type of magnet (A2, A5, etc), magnet mass (diameter, length and thickness), magnet manufacturer, rough or smooth magnet, winding tension, wax potted, coil offset, bottom plate material, alloy composition (slugs, keeper bar, & screws), physical screw style (Fillister, Hex, etc), inductance, bobbin material, cover (base metal, thickness & plating), plating for screws & slugs, etc.

All the variables mentioned above influence tonal response and I do completely agree that "number of turns" and "magnet strength" are very important ones. The “Winding Magic” happens as a combination of ALL these variables working together. IMO, all these variables, if properly executed, are the difference between a good sounding pickup and an outstanding one.

Jim

[David Schwab]

All the variables mentioned above influence tonal response and I do completely agree that "number of turns" and "magnet strength" are very important ones. The “Winding Magic” happens as a combination of ALL these variables working together. IMO, all these variables, if properly executed, are the difference between a good sounding pickup and an outstanding one.

Now take ONE design, like a humbucker; Keep all the parts the same, and just wind a different amount of turns of the same gage wire. Look at all the different tonalities you can get!

Now take that pickup and change just the pole the screws. Not such a big change. Same for the magnets; A5 to A2, and the pickup is a little mellower.

So while all those parts play a role in the final tone, "number of turns" is what separates a PAF from a Duncan JB, and so on.