Gibson quality....

[Possum]

A customer forwarded me this, I'm not a big fan of Gibson guitars, or Epiphones though I have a couple Epis that aren't bad but made in Korea not here. Read down to the second post on this board by a Gibson repairman. My opinion is if you want a really good Les Paul buy one made in Japan, they're better:
http://www.zzounds.com/productreview--GIBAMHV

[bob p]

i think its funny that people buy guitars that have vintage tuners on them and complain that the tuners are a POS. that guy talks about what a great guitar his 68 LP is, and how much worse the tuners are today. well, the 68 probably had Grovers, and his new guitar has historic vintage reproductions. nobody expects an authentic reproduction of the vintage tuner to outperform a Grover upgrade. much ado about nothing.

[Steve Conner]

I hate those vintage tuners, period. I'm currently getting psyched up to ream out the peg holes on my McCarty to 10mm so I can fit "real" tuners. I was worried about messing up its resale value, but used PRS prices don't seem that great anyway

[David Schwab]

As a repairman myself, I always have to take people saying their guitar wont stay in tune with a grain of salt. I had an '81 LP Standard with the replica keystone Klusons (I think they were Schallers, I replaced the stock tuners), and I have a '74 Fender Mustang that I replaced the stock tuners for the vintage looking Schallers Kluson copies.

Both of those guitars stayed in tune fine. The key is knowing how to sting up your guitar and to stretch the new strings a bit. I see some guitars where the owners obviously have no clue how to string a guitar. Or they say they bought the guitar a year ago, and when I ask when they changed the strings last they say "huh? These are the same strings" Yeah, these are beginners, but these are the people posting on music store websites.

But sadly big companies are worried about the bottom line. Good tuners are expensive. Fender is no better. Geddy Lee was talking about his Fender signature Jazz Bass, and how he started using them as backup basses, but had to replace the tuners. He complained to Fender, and they are upgrading he tuners on that model.

Gibson obviously just wants to milk the LP. I said it here before, but I can't believe the prices of these things, and that they have the nerve to sell that model unsanded and with no finish!

I'd just as soon buy an Epiphone, or an ESP for that matter! The Epi's are fine if you put on decent hardware.

I'm just going to make my own LP Custom.

As a side note... I had a guy bring me a nice Yamaha RGX-TTD6 baritone guitar this week. He didn't know what strings to put on it (they don't make the guitar anymore), so when he broke one he brought it to GuitarCenter, and they charged him $60 to change the strings! And they still didn't tell him what strings to use (and they put the wrong set on)! (they also charged him $150 for a partial refret job later on, and did not change the bad frets!). GC really sucks.

[DrStrangelove]

LP costume

I'm just going to make my own LP Custom.

I once approached a luthier about making a neck-through LP copy with a black finish, to be named the "Thru-Paul".

He scowled, was silent for a few seconds, then asked what I really wanted.

-drh

[SkinnyWire]

When you commit to playing a name, you have to accept what you get and then commit to fixing the issues that come with the name.

When I wanted a Les Paul, I bought a Tokai LS-150 straight from Japan. $1000 US shipped in a hardshell case. 1-piece mahogany body with a 1-piece mahogany neck (not a baseball bat, but beefy), long tenon, 3/4" maple cap and AA/AAA flame with CTS hardware, Orange Drop tone caps (those could be better) and an aluminum tail piece. Neck pickup is actually good enough that I never removed it and the guitar stays in tune after months in the case (got 14 other guitars to fiddle with).

I have three Agile "lawsuit" types - pre Gibson threat guitars from Rondo that cost me about $200 each. They all have 18:1 Grover tuners, mahogany bodies with maple necks and very good build quality. They stay in tune in the case and with aggressive playing and sound great when you put good pickups in them. Made in Korea? Yeah, okay. Not a big deal to me because I don't play the name. I'm after good quality and good tone not good style points.

If you have to be able to chat at the bar about your "Gibbo" or Fender then leave out the parts about quality (or lack thereof). Even the Carvin Bolt-T that I built is better quality most automobile-priced guitars.

[mick]

Well I sort of agree but tuning problems are usually a badly cut nut , but anyhow I was looking for a LP a few years ago and tried about 10 , I would not have bought any of them , every one of them had a neck issue of some sort , twisted or very uneven , frets were in a terrible state ,I bought a washburn copy from a pawn shop on the way back , it played far better than any of them , since bought a Tokai Jr , and a jap epiphone , both far and away better guitars than anything from the big G ,

Mick

[bob p]

every guitar that i have ever owned has been Made in the USA, just because I like to own guitars that were made by people who live in the country that I live in. sure its expensive -- but that's what it costs to support the local economy.

i own some Gibson custom shop guitars and every one of them is flawless. yes, flawless -- as in no flaws whatsoever. no i didn't buy them via mail-order from Musicians Friend so that i could save a few bucks. I bought them the old-fashioned way -- from a Gibson Custom Shop dealer, where i had to pay for the privilege of being able to hand-select them. to this day i don't regret the decision, as those guitars are worth every penny that i paid for them.

quality is still out there if you want it, but if you want quality then you have to be willing to pay for it. if Gibsons don't float your boat, there are plenty of other good guitars out there. even if your tastes are out of the mainstream, you can still get what you want. artisans like David will build a custom guitar to your specifications. the only catch is that you have to be willing to pay them a fair price for superior materials, superior skill, and superior craftsmanship.

all too often it seems that people focus more on price than on quality, and that is why we're in the situation we're in. if you want quality, you can get it, but you should expect to pay what it costs to get it without complaining. quality does not come cheap. if you want cheap, you can get cheap, but then you are buying a commodity, not a work of art.

[Ruel]

They don't make 'em like they used to.....

I got mixed feelings reading about Gibsons and Fenders with poor quality. I am sad that these pioneers have lost their enthusiasm in putting out quality products. It's all about "cash" now. No more about "soul" and "passion".

The only good thing about it though, if I can call it good, is that it gives opportunities for custom shops, even the small ones, to service a niche market. Just like what is happening with shitty factory made pickups giving people a reason to go to custom winders (such as some of the guys posting here).

[SkinnyWire]

every guitar that i have ever owned has been Made in the USA, just because I like to own guitars that were made by people who live in the country that I live in. sure its expensive -- but that's what it costs to support the local economy.

i own some Gibson custom shop guitars and every one of them is flawless. yes, flawless -- as in no flaws whatsoever. no i didn't buy them via mail-order from Musicians Friend so that i could save a few bucks. I bought them the old-fashioned way -- from a Gibson Custom Shop dealer, where i had to pay for the privilege of being able to hand-select them. to this day i don't regret the decision, as those guitars are worth every penny that i paid for them.

quality is still out there if you want it, but if you want quality then you have to be willing to pay for it. if Gibsons don't float your boat, there are plenty of other good guitars out there. even if your tastes are out of the mainstream, you can still get what you want. artisans like David will build a custom guitar to your specifications. the only catch is that you have to be willing to pay them a fair price for superior materials, superior skill, and superior craftsmanship.

all too often it seems that people focus more on price than on quality, and that is why we're in the situation we're in. if you want quality, you can get it, but you should expect to pay what it costs to get it without complaining. quality does not come cheap. if you want cheap, you can get cheap, but then you are buying a commodity, not a work of art.

Image is what it is, and everyone serves it in their own way. I love my country as much as anyone ... served it in uniform for 20 years and continue to serve in a different capacity today. That doesn't mean I have to waste my money where it's not due just on principle. Case in point, I'm not shelling out my hard earned cash for some piece of shit Ford just because it's "built here". Besides, my Honda was "built here" too. I might change my tune when union fat assess stop thinking they deserve $40-$50 an hour because of "tenure" so that we may have the privilege of knowing they turned a bolt for use between smoke breaks.

Cheap doesn't always mean crap, just as "paying for the privilege" doesn't always mean "flawless". Playing the badge is fine if that's what you want, and no doubt there are some good instruments in the chaff. I got into winding for the same reason. Couldn't believe what some folks are charging for "custom" pickups. As usual, YMMV.

[mick]

I see what you are getting at Bob , but for the money they are shit , charge $4000 for a guitar that not only plays shit , but looks shit and people are going to gripe...you don't always get what you pay for..

Mick

[jonson]

Seems you guys are getting same probs we have here. We in the UK have allways looked up to USA guitars, as, apart from brit custom stuff, early brit stuff was very mediocre to say the least. Everybody over here now buying Epi's and Jap Fenders cus the quality is better. I was sent a list of Pauls going cheap by a friend last month from the UK importer Twisted necks, Broken Truss Rods all sorts of things delivered to the UK like that but makes me wonder. Not every thing UK made IS. Bought a camera once with a gold sticker on it that said Made in Japan but underneath was another sticker which said Made in Taiwan. So is everything made in USA or being sourced due to costs elsewhere.

[bob p]

people who work and live in developed countries can not be expected to work for the wage of a third world worker, or for the wage of a political prisoner who works in a factory and is paid with a one day ration of rice. like anything else guitar prices should (and do) reflect the price of labor in the countries where they are made.

the situation is further complicated by the fact that the highest quality materials are exceptionally scarce and prohibitively expensive when they can be procured. if anyone doubts this, just try sourcing a tight-grained clear blank of real quarter sawn Brazilian rosewood or Madagascar ebony for a fretboard. some of these products are prohibited from importation into the USA, or the quality of what can come in isn't acceptable. what happens? we're down to using the existing stocks of premium materials that are on-hand, and prices reflect the shortage.

if anyone thinks that American guitars aren't any good, the problem is that they're shopping at the wrong price point with inflated expectations about what they are going to get for their money. the cost of labor here is significant and quality materials are expensive. at the top tier, demand outstrips supply. prices go up. if anyone wants an LP that's built on a thick one-piece slab of quarter sawn Honduran mahogany with a thick bookmatched 4A flame maple top and a fretboard that's made out of tight-grained, chocolate-colored, tight, linear-grained Brazilian rosewood, then Agile and Gibson USA aren't the right places to shop. this type of guitar can be bought from a custom shop, but it will not be "affordable." a critical shopper with a thick stack of $100 bills will have no problem finding the American guitar he wants.

nice things are expensive. really nice things are really expensive. you have to work hard and save a lot of money to buy them. sure, I wish that I could have bought my Guitars for $700, but that kind of expectation just isn't realistic.

and as to the car analogy, my really nice custom shop Gibsons don't cost as anywhere near as much as a car -- that is, unless an obtuse comparison is being made to a jalopy.

[Dave Kerr]

My son just received his Eastman AR-810CE yesterday - what an absolute piece of art. Chinese made hand carved archtop, they sell new for under $2,000. Their labor costs may be cheap, but the workmanship is top notch.

[bob p]

My son just received his Eastman AR-810CE yesterday - what an absolute piece of art. Chinese made hand carved archtop, they sell new for under $2,000. Their labor costs may be cheap, but the workmanship is top notch.

Just for comparison, my Gibson Custom Art & Historic 1956 LP Goldtop reissue cost $1750 -- less than the Chinese archtop.

http://www.gibsoncustom.com/flash/pr...56Goldtop.html