Any reason not to use this cable for 4-wire humbuckers?

[rjb]

Ah, and this would make yet another non standard color code for a pickup!

Oh, the horror!
If it bothers you that much, slide a piece of green heatshrink over the yellow wire!
Me, I'd keep the yellow pickup wire & use green hookup wire to designate shield/ground.
To each his own.

[Joe Gwinn]

Pickup Makers Standards Association (PMSA)

Why don't we the Pickup Makers Guild standardize the color code for use with this wire, at least among ourselves? Then there will be at least some consistency.

[big_teee]

Black, white, green, and red is already the standard 4 wire 28 gauge Cable.
I like the SD colors, and SD diagrams that the whole world uses.
Just call the yellow wire green, if you use it.
I think I have used this mogami wire before, and if it is the wire I'm thinking of, when soldering the insulation runs up the wire, when the least bit hot.
I like the Mojo cable, because the wire insulation seems to be more heat resistant.

[David King]

Well if we all got together and ordered a LOT of the mogami wire I'm sure they would change the yellow to green for us.
In Europe the 4 cond seems to white, yellow, brown and green. At least what's what Schaller uses and somehow I picked up a big roll of it somewhere.

[David Schwab]

Oh, the horror!
If it bothers you that much, slide a piece of green heatshrink over the yellow wire!
Me, I'd keep the yellow pickup wire & use green hookup wire to designate shield/ground.
To each his own.

It doesn't bother me per se, but have you ever gotten your hands on an unfamiliar pickup and had to figure out how it was wired? It happens to people all the time. If they are lucky they can find the info online. Sometimes they can't.

DiMarzio did the first commercially available pickups with 4-conductor wiring in 1972. What never made sense is why Duncan, Gibson, et al, would take the same four colors and wire the pickup differently. That's not counting Schaller who used yellow and brown wires, or Lawrence that also used different colors. This just adds confusion to guitarist, who are often not very technically savvy. It also makes sense since green is ground, and red it hot.

So why not just adopt a standard, like for house wiring? When I have people email me saying either they lost the wiring diagram, or they bought one of my pickups used, I can tell them follow the DiMarzio or EMG HZ wiring.

Clearly the yellow wire could be used in place of the green. But I can already buy wire with a green wire.

[rjb]

...have you ever gotten your hands on an unfamiliar pickup and had to figure out how it was wired?

Confession: I don't do this stuff very often.
But if I had to figure out how an unfamiliar pickup was wired, I could come here- and some one would remind me how to do it with an analog meter and a screwdriver.

DiMarzio did the first commercially available pickups with 4-conductor wiring in 1972.

And one could argue (if one wanted to argue) that DiMarzio ignored the then-prevailing 2-wire color convention: White = Hot, Black = Ground.

What never made sense is why Duncan, Gibson, et al, would take the same four colors and wire the pickup differently. That's not counting Schaller who used yellow and brown wires, or Lawrence that also used different colors.

In other words, the current standard is no standard.

This just adds confusion to guitarist, who are often not very technically savvy.

Which may be how we got the DiMarzio "standard"- all those technically un-savvy guitarists wired their pickups wrong!
I wired my Model P's as God and Seth intended- with the Starts (Green & Red) as the series link;
White for hot, Black for ground (again, as God and Seth intended). Works fine.

It also makes sense since green is ground, and red it hot.

No, no, no!
Red is DC+, Black is 0V, Blue is DC-
Green is safety or shield ground.
For analog signals, White is Hot (Signal), Black is Ground (Return).
Green and Red are Christmas colors.
Not that I want to argue.

So why not just adopt a standard, like for house wiring?

I don't think the NEC folks care. If out-of-phase pickups were a safety hazard, they might.

And just think of the burden on repair techs if some governing body were to retrofit a standard color code over the current mish-mash of individual company conventions.
Instead of, say, just replacing a worn out pot, you'd have to replace the entire harness to "bring it up to code."

When I have people email me saying either they lost the wiring diagram, or they bought one of my pickups used, I can tell them follow the DiMarzio or EMG HZ wiring.

You can do that now. Just say to follow the DiMarzio color "convention" (vs "code" or "standard").

[rjb]

Summing up

Here's a tally of the reasons not to use Mogami 2929 cable for 4-wire humbuckers raised so far:

• Foil without drain wire... oops, OP brain-fart- it has served shield. Never mind.
• Not "standard" colors (black, white, red, green)
• I love the cable I use now
• Insulation might melt (unconfirmed)

Do I hear "may be unacceptably microphonic (unconfirmed)"?

[big_teee]

If you like it, go for it.
It should do fine for you.
As far as making it the Pickup forum Standard, as suggested by Joe, I vote Nay!
T

[David Schwab]

Confession: I don't do this stuff very often.
But if I had to figure out how an unfamiliar pickup was wired, I could come here- and some one would remind me how to do it with an analog meter and a screwdriver.

Not a valid answer. That's avoiding the answer.

And one could argue (if one wanted to argue) that DiMarzio ignored the then-prevailing 2-wire color convention: White = Hot, Black = Ground.

Also not a valid answer. Where was the "then-prevailing 2-wire color convention"? There wasn't any. For humbuckers you had Gibson with the braided jacket coax. Black was hot and the braid was ground. In some coax the center was white. If you are talking about Fender, once again, not the standard. First off, they don't have four connections, and secondly some of their pickups used yellow wires. My '72 Mustang has two different sets of wire colors for each pickup.

Once again, DiMarzio introduced the 4-conductor pickup to the market. Which is what we are talking about.

In other words, the current standard is no standard.

DiMarzo was the standard. Other makers decided to muddy the waters when they copied DiMarzio. And there's the rub, they didn't want to look like they were copying, so they changed the color orders. They had no other valid reason to change the order of the colors except to be different.

Which may be how we got the DiMarzio "standard"- all those technically un-savvy guitarists wired their pickups wrong!
I wired my Model P's as God and Seth intended- with the Starts (Green & Red) as the series link;
White for hot, Black for ground (again, as God and Seth intended). Works fine.

What did Seth (or God) have to do with the Model P? Or any P pickup? Seth never made a 4-conductor pickup, or a 2 conductor pickup with black and white wires. Gibson used coax.

Maybe you should have read the instructions that came with the pickups?

Also, on a P pickup, it's generally a good idea to have the start of the coil under the E/A strings as ground. That prevents noise when you touch the poles, which happens since people rest their thumb on the pickup.

No, no, no!
Red is DC+, Black is 0V, Blue is DC-
Green is safety or shield ground.
For analog signals, White is Hot (Signal), Black is Ground (Return).
Green and Red are Christmas colors.
Not that I want to argue.

Close enough, red is (+) green is ground, which is what I said. Plus, I'm talking about colors that represent real world things, grass is green and fire is thought to be red. People relate to that. Also we are talking about pickups. What the heck are you talking about? And the shield ground on 4-conductor cable is either the bare drain wire, or the braided shield.

If you are just trying to argue, which appears to be the case, go somewhere else. You asked if there was a reason not to use that wire. I gave my opinion, as a pickup maker. It's a non standard group of colors. I'm sure it's nice wire, and not worth my trouble. Other wire is fine too. The wire from WD is cheaper and very flexible.

So, WHAT ON EARTH does any of this have to do with the Mogami wire using yellow when the majority of pickup use green. Answer that please.

I don't think the NEC folks care. If out-of-phase pickups were a safety hazard, they might.

They make pickups? No? So what was your point again?

Also, I don't know how old you are, but I'm old enough to remember black as hot and green as ground on lots of things. My digital multi-meter has red as hot, because red is a hot color.

Luckily builders of other musical instruments come to some agreement on things from time to time; where would we be if Dave Smith and Chet Wood hadn't come up with MIDI, and Smith hadn't proposed this as a standard at the Audio Engineering Society? We would have a dozen different interfaces that didn't work together. This was also how early guitar amps where; some used different types of plugs. Think what a pain in the ass that would have been. Kind of like with cell phone chargers using USB plugs, but wiring them up non standard. I believe there was a law passed against that recently.

Since companies like DiMarzio and Duncan make replacement pickups in Gibson and fender form factors, it makes sense to unify the wiring a bit, just as they do with the hardware. If they weren't so busy competing with each other, they could have set a standard like the electronic music people did with MIDI.

Then you wouldn't have people posting on web forums wondering how to wire up some obscure 4-conductor pickup from Asia or wherever.

[rjb]

Thank you, everyone, for your helpful and lively input and advice.

Here's my executive summary of the discussion:

For someone like me, who occasionally builds or repairs a pickup for his own use, and who does not have a dealer's account at Mojo or WD, the Mogami cable is worth a shot. It appears to be high quality, and no one has raised any electrical or mechanical concerns. My cost at Markertek would be less than at a pickup specialty house, and I don't give a pig's patoot about the wire colors.

For someone who builds tons of pickups, gets his cable at discount, and is concerned about conforming to "industry standard" color code, the yellow wire might be a deal breaker.

Thanks again,
-rb

[rjb]

Not a valid answer. That's avoiding the answer.

The answer is that if I had to figure out how an unfamiliar pickup was wired, I'd use an analog meter and a screwdriver.
EDIT: And a compass.
But how would my future purchase of some cable change the fact that weird pickups already exist?

Where was the "then-prevailing 2-wire color convention"?

If you were to build a wire harness for guitar, using only 2 wire colors, what colors would you use?
Most folks would use white for "hot" (signal) and black for ground. That's the convention.
When DiMarzio came out with 4-wire humbuckers, he could have used white for hot and black for ground. But he didn't.

Once again, DiMarzio introduced the 4-conductor pickup to the market. Which is what we are talking about.

DiMarzo was the standard. Other makers decided to muddy the waters when they copied DiMarzio. And there's the rub, they didn't want to look like they were copying, so they changed the color orders. They had no other valid reason to change the order of the colors except to be different.

OK, I concur. Other than to say DiMarzio's colors were a manufacturer's "convention"- not a "standard".
That ship has sailed, the horse is out of the barn, you can't put the genie back in the bottle, and [insert your own cliche here].

What did Seth (or God) have to do with the Model P? Or any P pickup? Seth never made a 4-conductor pickup, or a 2 conductor pickup with black and white wires. Gibson used coax.

Seth patented the humbucker pickup (including humbuckers with offset coils).
And in that patent, God, uh, Seth spaketh the inner coil wires shall form the series link.

Maybe you should have read the instructions that came with the pickups?

The pickups came in a used PBass. Before all information known to man was on the interweb.

Also, on a P pickup, it's generally a good idea to have the start of the coil under the E/A strings as ground. That prevents noise when you touch the poles, which happens since people rest their thumb on the pickup.

Good point- and one that DiMarzio totally ignores. I see the instructions say "It does not matter which side the two halves sit in."
But thank you for that tip. Seriously.

...Plus, I'm talking about colors that represent real world things, grass is green and fire is thought to be red. People relate to that. Also we are talking about pickups. What the heck are you talking about?

Grass, fire, pickups, burning grass? What the heck are you talking about?

So, WHAT ON EARTH does any of this have to do with the Mogami wire using yellow when the majority of pickup use green. Answer that please.

I have no freakin' idea. I don't even understand the question.

They make pickups? No? So what was your point again?

David, you said "So why not just adopt a standard, like for house wiring?"
NEC (National Electrical Code) is the standard for house wiring, and is largely concerned with safety.
My points are:
1) You are comparing apples to orangutans - miswired pickups are not generally a safety hazard.
2) It is too late to adopt a standard. As you have noted, although many pickup makers use the same 4 colors, they use those 4 colors to mean different things. Trying to "retrofit" a standard at this point would be like saying that cassette tapes, 8-tracks, and minidiscs should be made compatible.
You can, however, choose to adopt some pickup maker's convention.

...If they weren't so busy competing with each other, they could have set a standard like the electronic music people did with MIDI.

And if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

Later,
-rb

ps- Cheez wiz, how did we get into this brew-ha-ha?

EDIT: OK, I see... I guess I started it.

Sorry about that,
Ralph "Autism Spectrum" Barthine

[Joe Gwinn]

I think I have used this mogami wire before, and if it is the wire I'm thinking of, when soldering the insulation runs up the wire, when the least bit hot.
I like the Mojo cable, because the wire insulation seems to be more heat resistant.

Given the flexibility of the Mogami wire, I wouldn't be surprised if the PVC insulation (which must be quite soft) melts easily.

People making magnetic heads don't solder these wires, they make connections by crimping.

But we can use the very hot soldering iron and very short contact time to solder such wire - a puff of smoke and it's done.

[big_teee]

Given the flexibility of the Mogami wire, I wouldn't be surprised if the PVC insulation (which must be quite soft) melts easily.

People making magnetic heads don't solder these wires, they make connections by crimping.

But we can use the very hot soldering iron and very short contact time to solder such wire - a puff of smoke and it's done.

I use the WTCPT Solder Station, It has all the heat I need.
If you are changing, wire, why not use the WD wire, it has the fine wire shield, is supposedly softer, has the right CC, and is 45 cents a foot.
T

[rjb]

If you are changing, wire, why not use the WD wire, it has the fine wire shield, is supposedly softer, has the right CC, and is 45 cents a foot.

Well, 90 cents a foot for shmoes like me- plus whatever they charge for postage and handling...
I do thank everyone who has mentioned the WD cable- I'll follow up on that lead.

Thanks,
-rb

[Beef Coon]

Here's a good little read:

http://music-electronics-forum.com/t31164/