Violin Detective

[Joe Gwinn]

I just saw an interesting one-page article in Nature (25 September 2014, page 486), an interview with Peter Ratcliff, who dates stringed instruments using dendrochronology (tree-ring dating). This is helpful in establishing provenance and history.

Unfortunately, it's behind a paywall, but here is the URL, just in case. I would not spend $18 to read it. Big libraries will have Nature.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...l/513486a.html

[Leo_Gnardo]

I just saw an interesting one-page article in Nature (25 September 2014, page 486), an interview with Peter Ratcliff, who dates stringed instruments using dendrochronology (tree-ring dating). This is helpful in establishing provenance and history.

Unfortunately, it's behind a paywall, but here is the URL, just in case. I would not spend $18 to read it. Big libraries will have Nature.

For a couple bucks, could pick up the current Nature at a bookstore or well stocked news stand. I'll try to score one. Bound to be interesting.

FWIW there have been some other articles here & there, one I remember in Scientific American @ 15 years ago concerning wood that Stradivarius and other top violin makers were using 300 or so years back. One of the ideas was ol' Anton S and maybe Amati, Guarneri and others were hauling up "sinker" logs (well maybe not the luthiers themselves but their wood sources) and the action of bacteria on these old submerged logs helped lighten the wood and make it more resonant.

Another article in Preservation details the use of sinker wood in restoring old houses and other buildings. It's just about the only current source of heart-of-pine. Same tree, but modern pines are harvested long before the heartwood is formed; sapwood is the pine we're familiar with. There was a project replacing h-o-p roofing shingles on George Washington's octagonal horse barn. After 200+ years the old shingles needed replacement.

My cabinet making & finish-carp friends tell me sinker wood is all the rage right now for interior trim. For the well to do only, of course. Some guitar makers are using sinker wood too.

[Joe Gwinn]

FWIW there have been some other articles here & there, one I remember in Scientific American @ 15 years ago concerning wood that Stradivarius and other top violin makers were using 300 or so years back. One of the ideas was ol' Anton S and maybe Amati, Guarneri and others were hauling up "sinker" logs (well maybe not the luthiers themselves but their wood sources) and the action of bacteria on these old submerged logs helped lighten the wood and make it more resonant.

Another article in Preservation details the use of sinker wood in restoring old houses and other buildings. It's just about the only current source of heart-of-pine. Same tree, but modern pines are harvested long before the heartwood is formed; sapwood is the pine we're familiar with. There was a project replacing h-o-p roofing shingles on George Washington's octagonal horse barn. After 200+ years the old shingles needed replacement.

My cabinet making & finish-carp friends tell me sinker wood is all the rage right now for interior trim. For the well to do only, of course. Some guitar makers are using sinker wood too.

The article made no mention of sinker logs. They are more interested in being able to say that "this violin cannot have been made before xxx, so yyy cannot have made it".

[Leo_Gnardo]

The article made no mention of sinker logs. They are more interested in being able to say that "this violin cannot have been made before xxx, so yyy cannot have mare it".

Would like to see their techniques applied to '59 Les Pauls, a model that's been counterfeited a lot. Maybe the timing's a bit too close-in.

I'll jump into the local Barnes & Noble, see if they have the mag. Thanks for the headsup Joe!

Wonder if the researchers use carbon dating. At my age, that's the only kind I'm gonna get.

[Joe Gwinn]

Would like to see their techniques applied to '59 Les Pauls, a model that's been counterfeited a lot. Maybe the timing's a bit too close-in.

It could work, if there is anybody in the dendro community that's interested.

Wonder if the researchers use carbon dating. At my age, that's the only kind I'm gonna get.

The problem with carbon dating is that it requires that something like a cubic centimeter of material be removed and destroyed.

[David King]

It's nice to see an actual scientific paper re violins as opposed to the endless recycling of the dubious claims of self-promoting "scientists" picked up regularly by national media, always claiming to have discovered the secret to Stradivari's instruments. Endless bunk. Dendrochronology can be irrefutable proof of the age of a log but still not conclusive for the date of an instrument's creation. Of course you have to know what forest the wood came from. German forest chronology won't necessarily line up with Italian or French as regional climates can be significantly different.

[tedmich]

its like the hours and hours of testing required to tell the clones in Bladerunner, if you gotta work that hard to tell a clone, lets just call it equivalent.

But Strad's are an investment commodity much more than an instrument now...if you are gonna shell out house money for a fake "Less Paul" all you really want is the next rich dumb guy to make the same mistake you did ;P

[salvarsan]

The problem with carbon dating is that it requires that something like a cubic centimeter of material be removed and destroyed.

The craft has improved enough that samples around 1 gram give useful results.

Still, who'd offer up their Les Paul, new or old, for even a peanut-sized slug of wood?

[Leo_Gnardo]

The craft has improved enough that samples around 1 gram give useful results.

Still, who'd offer up their Les Paul, new or old, for even a peanut-sized slug of wood?

To expand: who would like to find out their prize guitar is a counterfeit? Not that I'm any great authority on this, but I've read there are over 3000 "authentic" '59 Les Pauls. Meanwhile Gibson made fewer than 1000. Would be embarrassing for an owner to find out the awful truth. Similar problem in the world of 'fine art' sales and insurance. Imagine paying insurance on a painting valued at 10 mil then finding it's a faker worth maybe 5 grand. Oops. OTOH in the guitar owner's mind, maybe "who cares, long as it plays good, sounds good. Whether my LP is a fake or not, my fans still buy my recordings and attend concerts. Let my heirs worry about it."

String instruments that trade at 5 to 20 or more times the value of a quarter-mil or so LP, it's that much more of an issue. Occasionally one of these needs a repair that may free up a couple of splinters that can be analyzed. I'm sure no owner of a Strad, Amati, Guarneri or similar would volunteer even a peanut size chunk as you say, apart from the rare case where a repair is needed.

It's been a while salvarsan, good to see you here!

- - - - - -
tedmich, greater fool theory, so true.

[g1]

A little OT, but addressing the issue of how much "better" the old stuff is:
Blind-tested soloists unable to tell Stradivarius violins from modern instruments | Latest | The Strad
and some of the factors that can skew the testing, from one of the participants in the earlier ("controversial") 2012 comparison
What Really Happened in that Double-Blind Violin Sound Test

[Mike Sulzer]

So even on the new repeated better test, the title is , shall we say politely, open to misinterpretation. The violinists could tell one violin from another, they just could not tell you which was a strad. That is, different instruments sound different, but can not be positively identified as to their origin.

A little OT, but addressing the issue of how much "better" the old stuff is:
Blind-tested soloists unable to tell Stradivarius violins from modern instruments | Latest | The Strad
and some of the factors that can skew the testing, from one of the participants in the earlier ("controversial") 2012 comparison
What Really Happened in that Double-Blind Violin Sound Test

[tedmich]

this test is much easier

they pick the Strad every time...

At least the Strads at ridiculous prices still get played in public, largely, not like the paintings "worth" 100's of millions that are in storage only cause insurance would be too much...

[JGundry]

One thing you may want to consider is every concert Strad has a non original neck and fingerboard, non original bass bar, and likely a sound post patch or even a belly patch as well as a radically different bridge and neck angle than when Stradivari made them. In some ways vintage Strads now have more in common with modern repros than they do with Stradivari's original design. It is no wonder the modern player cannot pick them out of a crowd of top shelf modem instruments.

[Joe Gwinn]

The craft has improved enough that samples around 1 gram give useful results.

Given that most woods float, a cubic centimeter will weigh somewhat less than one gram. But the difference isn't dramatic.

Still, who'd offer up their Les Paul, new or old, for even a peanut-sized slug of wood?

Yes. Unless it was an accident victim, and this is part of the autopsy.

[in a vacuum]

Stradavarius violins are valuable because Antonio refined the shape and design of the modern form of the classical violin. They were excellent sounding, although variable. Whether or not a modern maker can make a great copy should have little bearing on the value of old Strads. The value comes from their historic importance. Maestronet.com has extensive discussions of dendrochronology and these old vs. new tests going on by the people who are doing this work. The old vs. new stuff is silly as players can smell the instruments even when blindfolded, and comparing a great modern instrument to a very average Strad is no test at all.