Using Aluminum Magnet Wire to Simulate the Lower Quality Copper of Yesteryear?

[rjb]

Suppose you put two resistors of equal value in series and connect a battery....

I know how to determine the inductance of an air core solenoid, but I think it is not so easy with a high permeability core.

On another discussion I recently posted some measurements of the impedance (and the inductance is written on the plot) with steel and alnico. Alnico is maybe 6 and steel maybe a couple hundred, but the difference in inductance was not that large, just over a factor of two.

OK, I think I've got it- maybe.
For a given applied voltage, the difference in current between [1Ω in series with 1MΩ] and [100Ω in series with 1MΩ] is insignificant.
For a solenoid, the difference in inductance between an alnico core and a steel core is not so large because... the permeability of either material is significantly greater than the permeability of free space?
But the difference in inductance between an air core solenoid and a steel core solenoid is...?
And this equation may have little to no practical value in the real world?


For μ₀ = permeability of free space; k = relative permeability; μ = kμ₀

BTW, I'm only asking because I'd like to try building a vintage style "Varitone"- and according to some sources, the original Gibson inductors were in the range 15-16 Henry (not a value you can typically buy off the shelf).
Again, my apologies for the intrusion.

EDIT1: Is part of the confusion because I'm thinking about a stand-alone inductor and Mike was originally referring to a magnetic structure that includes the string gap? Or because you-all are talking about an oblong coil wrapped around a row of polepieces separated by air, and I'm thinking of a round coil wrapped around a solid core? Or something like that?

EDIT2: You'd think it would be easy to wind a steel-cored solenoid to within a factor of ten from a desired inductance value, but I'm embarrassed to admit that I don't know how.

[rjb]

Apparently, nerbas made from the Chianina bulls sound better.

Better than most PAFs?

[salvarsan]

Better than most PAFs?

Abslootly. And like guitars, the red ones sound even better.

[J M Fahey]

Abslootly. And like guitars, the red ones sound even better.

I will never understand this American obsession about linking red things with quality





[drooling]

[salvarsan]

I will never understand this American obsession about linking red things with quality.

Yanks aren't alone in that dopey affliction.

Consider how close-sounding the Russian words for "red, beautiful" are.

[capehead]

Wow, I just realized there was more conversation going on 'between the lines' so to speak; this forum's format is a bit different than the more linear types I typically frequent. When I mentioned audio transformer winders I forgot about Chris Merren who I believe is one of the most well learned guys in the business, definitely a true artist. If there is anyone who has studied every aspect of vintage transformer winding practically down to the atomic level, it would be Merren. As far as I'm concerned about power transformers, they are utilitarian in function and should be built with every modern technique available to ensure reliable, long lived performance but output transformers are where it is at for the 'mojo factor'. With the limited amounts of vintage wire I have reclaimed (and will reclaim as I open up more of my old iron stash), it will all be going into output transformers after I have gotten some practice using modern wire. I would like to hear of the results with your friend's JTM-45 OT project also, I'm sure if both the iron and copper are vintage and of course the actual winding pattern/interleaving is accurate to the original then the outcome I'm sure will be noticeably different than that of same type using modern materials; if your buddy would happen to have the desire to make his undertaking partly scientific, he should have the winder make 2 OT's of exactly the same specs and winding patterns but with one being made of modern materials and the other of all vintage. As to the plain enamel topic though; finding out the term 'oleoresin enamel' has opened up many new doors in my research including a number of old patents related to the process. But what I am wondering is why was almost everything the was called PE that purple/black/brown color for a decade + span of time when the patents I looked at have all said that the oleoresin base compound itself was only slightly colored and it took additives (both powdered metals and carbon) to color it? I was looking on ebay for vintage wire and this PE coating was on a number of different rolls, all of different sizes and manufacturers; here are a few examples I've found: Lot of 10 Vintage Assorted Wooden Spools of Radio Magnet Wire Birnbach Radio Co | eBay
Vintage Spool Copper Magnet Wire 4 lbs Motor Winding 0625 Wilber B Driver | eBay
Lot of 2 Spools of Vintage Enameled Magnetic Wire | eBay
I thought of the possibility that these different company names were just distributors and all this wire came from one manufacturer but I've seen some examples of wire that were from different known manufacturers (like American Steel & Wire, General Cable, Anaconda, ect.) but still had that same dark colored coating. Another thing I thought about regarding PE's capacitance factor is the definition of an oleoresin is oil based which led me to start thinking about oil filled capacitors and their relative larger size in comparison to conventional film types and how oil is used in high voltage transformers; it appears that that some oils have superior insulating characteristics thus leading to the perceived brighter sound of pickups wound with PE? BTW, in your experiments with mu metal, how would you describe the effect? One more thing; my music electronics path started with winding pickups when I was 15 years old so this whole thing isn't completely foreign territory to me. Don't get me wrong, my level of proficiency never reached anywhere near that of a pro which is why this time around I'm taking the effort to do the research so that my end results will be consistent to my intentions.

[Jason Rodgers]

This thread has evolved and focused to include some very interesting and educational information and perspectives. As a pretty fresh newbie to the pickup winding world, my very shallow understanding of differences in pickup design - and their resulting tone - revolved around what I thought were some fairly gross differences in materials and DCR. But here we're talking about basically ONE design, the PAF, with seemingly minute differences in construction, resulting in very different tonal outcomes. I'm glad I've been following this thread.

[capehead]

This thread has evolved and focused to include some very interesting and educational information and perspectives. As a pretty fresh newbie to the pickup winding world, my very shallow understanding of differences in pickup design - and their resulting tone - revolved around what I thought were some fairly gross differences in materials and DCR. But here we're talking about basically ONE design, the PAF, with seemingly minute differences in construction, resulting in very different tonal outcomes. I'm glad I've been following this thread.

This thread has evolved and I'm glad it has since my original premise about aluminum wire has been thoroughly proven to be an inadequate substitute for vintage copper wire in vintage type designs, although in some unorthodox applications it could have a legitimate purpose. If I could I would have changed the thread topic's name a while back but I guess you can't do that on this forum; it's all good because so far, productive conversation hasn't been hindered. I think the conversation about vintage plain enamel wire is a conversation that should be had over and over again until every miniscule detail about it has been thoroughly extracted as it will I believe benefit all of us and the music electronics industry as a whole when this information can be translated into a manufactured product. This forum has the reputation of having the best informed/learned people as it's members across practically every area of focus (the political conversation forum may be the one exception, lol!), so if there is any group of individuals who could arm a willing manufacturer with the right kind of info to build for us the exact product we are looking for; at least that is how it happens in my dreams......

[salvarsan]

I think the conversation about vintage plain enamel wire is a conversation that should be had over and over again until every miniscule detail about it has been thoroughly extracted as it will I believe benefit all of us and the music electronics industry as a whole when this information can be translated into a manufactured product.

As you have seen, there are some who insist that the details are
irreproducible, indescribable, unmeasurable, or unknowable. It doesn't stop them
from talking about that ineffability at length (and without paragraph breaks).
Those are unproductive contributions and may be safely ignored.

For a good time, call this thread.

This forum has the reputation of having the best informed/learned people as it's members across practically every area of focus (the political conversation forum may be the one exception, lol!), so if there is any group of individuals who could arm a willing manufacturer with the right kind of info to build for us the exact product we are looking for; at least that is how it happens in my dreams......

Truth be told, this forum started because people were sick of the hyperbole and mystery around pickups.
Some people feel they economically benefit from mystery and hype, so are less than candid about what they know.

That's why people from the My Les Paul forum don't visit here except to lurk.
A consumer wants the thrill of exclusive ownership and doesn't take
kindly to inconvenient truths. Research, development, and production
engender a different mindset.

[John_H]

I think the conversation about vintage plain enamel wire is a conversation that should be had over and over again until every miniscule detail about it has been thoroughly extracted as it will...

Have you built a pickup yet?

[salvarsan]

Have you built a pickup yet?

Does it matter?
He's an honest seeker of the truth who wants to ease, not jump into deep water.

<snark>
There's a seeker born every minute.
</snark>

[big_teee]

Does it matter?
He's an honest seeker of the truth who wants to ease, not jump into deep water.

<snark>
There's a seeker born every minute.
</snark>

But, Somewhere down the Line?
It's time to fire up the winder.

[John_H]

There's a seeker born every minute.

Nice.

[salvarsan]

Nice.

Hello seeker! Now don't feel alone here in the New Age, because there's a seeker born every minute.

Everything you know is wrong.

[Leo_Gnardo]

Hello seeker! Now don't feel alone here in the New Age, because there's a seeker born every minute.

Everything you know is wrong.

I'm going in there - I smell BREAKFAST ! ! !

But . . . I am glad our OP has seen the folly of pickup winding with aluminum. It's been an education for one and all. I'll stick with my old roll of Phelps Dodge "authentically impure" copper.