Tuned aperture pickups

[Peteus]

Has anyone else seen these? https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...ref=discovery#

I like the idea wonder if anyone else has done this?

[Peter Naglitsch]

I cannot fina any info on what configuration(s) was used in each sound clip, thus making any comparison impossible. I would have needed a clip, preferable without that heavy distortion, doubled guitars and drums+bass, with a short recording in configurations one thru four, mounted in the same guitar and position to be able to say anything about this at all. It is an interesting idea that has some merits to it. I know the difference between a fender style pickup with the wire close to the magnets and a DeArmond style pickup with a significant distance between the magnet rod and the wire so I'm not going to play the "bogus" card at all. However there is too much self promotion/hype (OK its kick-starter, I know...) to be able to say anything at all.

[12xu]

How different are these from the ones in Koll Guitars.

[David King]

We discussed the Koll pickups a few years back. I can't remember how they look on the insides, I'm pretty sure TV Jones wound them for Saul.

[ElysianGuitars]

Hey all, wanted to take a second to respond to this, as I think it's a really good question. The Koll pickups were pointed out to me on The Gear Page after I had filed the provisional, and while I agree it's a somewhat similar idea, the execution is very different. The point of my pickups is to increase the aperture of the coil while still maintaining a traditional look and fitment. I had never seen this pickup before, but in all of my patent research leading up to the filing of the provisional also never came across a patent filed for the Tuned Aperture. The only asymmetrical coil I did find was from Lace, and their coils are much different from mine since they are doing sidewinder coils.

The Koll pickups look cool, but their function is to get the best of both P90 and single coil pickups, and don't appear to have been used in any of the humbucking configurations I've mentioned in my Kickstarter, nor are they meant to be reversible. I feel the difference there is fairly significant. My pickups do warm up the area under the wider part of the aperture, but not nearly to the levels of a P90. The amount of tone shaping flexibility that my pickups get from using standard shapes/sizes is also very significant.

[ElysianGuitars]

I cannot fina any info on what configuration(s) was used in each sound clip, thus making any comparison impossible. I would have needed a clip, preferable without that heavy distortion, doubled guitars and drums+bass, with a short recording in configurations one thru four, mounted in the same guitar and position to be able to say anything about this at all. It is an interesting idea that has some merits to it. I know the difference between a fender style pickup with the wire close to the magnets and a DeArmond style pickup with a significant distance between the magnet rod and the wire so I'm not going to play the "bogus" card at all. However there is too much self promotion/hype (OK its kick-starter, I know...) to be able to say anything at all.

Each sound clip on Soundcloud is clearly labeled "Config X."

[12xu]

Hey all, wanted to take a second to respond to this, as I think it's a really good question. The Koll pickups were pointed out to me on The Gear Page after I had filed the provisional, and while I agree it's a somewhat similar idea, the execution is very different. The point of my pickups is to increase the aperture of the coil while still maintaining a traditional look and fitment. I had never seen this pickup before, but in all of my patent research leading up to the filing of the provisional also never came across a patent filed for the Tuned Aperture. The only asymmetrical coil I did find was from Lace, and their coils are much different from mine since they are doing sidewinder coils.

The Koll pickups look cool, but their function is to get the best of both P90 and single coil pickups, and don't appear to have been used in any of the humbucking configurations I've mentioned in my Kickstarter, nor are they meant to be reversible. I feel the difference there is fairly significant. My pickups do warm up the area under the wider part of the aperture, but not nearly to the levels of a P90. The amount of tone shaping flexibility that my pickups get from using standard shapes/sizes is also very significant.

Is a slight variation on the design and intention a patentable thing, I don't really know, I'm not a patent guy...not even the slightest clue how that stuff works.

Wouldn't using this design with a different intention still be the same idea. P90 vs humbucker. An oblong coil, wider at one end, designed to do something different. Refining the use of it doesn't seem like a patentable thing or one you could enforce on someone.

I'm not sure how you could patent the shape of a coil.

Again...I don't know, just asking.


I'm guessing Saul Koll didn't bother patenting it, probably didn't think you could or it was a waste of time....explains why you wouldn't see it in any kind of search you did.

[Mike Sulzer]

From the reference:

How Does It Work?

Think of a P90 versus a standard single coil. The P90 has a very wide aperture, and sounds huge and deep, whereas the standard single coil has a very narrow aperture, which gives it a very focused tone, tight and with more treble than the P90. The Tuned Aperture Pickup combines the benefits of the wider aperture with the clarity and focus of the narrow aperture.

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No, this is not how it works.

The aperture of a Fender type single coil and a P-90 are not very different because the aperture is not defined by the width of the coil, but rather by two factors:
1. The section of the string strongly magnetized, and then primarily the component of the field directed through the coil.
2. The changing flux through the coil fro the vibrating string, mostly determined by the same pole pieces that magnetize the strings.

Neither of these factors extends very far from the pole pieces. The product of the two effects falls off faster than with alone.

So the apertures are not very different, and certainly not related to the differences in the width of the coil. Look elsewhere for differences in tone.

Remember it is the total changing flux through a loop of wire that counts; so turns far from the pole pieces still count, although somewhat reduced from the field returning back up after passing through the coil and thus pointing in the other direction.

[David King]

But Mike,
You just ruined Elysian's marketing. Everyone understands "aperture" but it's much harder to market a mysterious effect that has no name and that no one understands...

[bbsailor]

But Mike,
You just ruined Elysian's marketing. Everyone understands "aperture" but it's much harder to market a mysterious effect that has no name and that no one understands...

Unless it is April Fools day.

I too was abit taken back by the Elysian explaination for the causes of "aperature". I always thought that the magnetic field is greater closer to the round single coil magnets and that as the coil is wound farther from the magnet, the output would be lower as it is in a weaker magnetic field. Mike's characterization of a wider aperature needing also a wider magnetic field going through the wire coil is a necessary component.

P90s spread the magnetic field by placing horizontal magnets under the coil to spread the magnetic field to get the wide aperature effect on the wider coil with the magnetic field also spread out under the wider coil.

I can see the Elysian coil shape concept helping to balance a magnetic pickup being used on a acoustic guitar where the plain B and E strings tend to dominate the wound strings. Place the coil close to the magnets on the lower wound strings and then widen the spacing around the two plain strings to obtain a better string balance.

Joseph J. Rogowski

[Mike Sulzer]

P90s spread the magnetic field by placing horizontal magnets under the coil to spread the magnetic field to get the wide aperature effect on the wider coil with the magnetic field also spread out under the wider coil.

I really do not think that it can work that way. Both of the academic analyses of pickups that we have discussed on this forum agree with what I am saying: The permanent magnetic field magnetizes the string. The component of the resulting field from the string through the coil varies with time as the string vibrates, inducing a voltage in the coil. The value of the permanent field only matters at the string, and it is strong only near the pole piece. The purpose of he horizontal magnets is to keep the pickup reasonably thin while sufficiently magnetizing the screw.

[bbsailor]

I really do not think that it can work that way. Both of the academic analyses of pickups that we have discussed on this forum agree with what I am saying: The permanent magnetic field magnetizes the string. The component of the resulting field from the string through the coil varies with time as the string vibrates, inducing a voltage in the coil. The value of the permanent field only matters at the string, and it is strong only near the pole piece. The purpose of he horizontal magnets is to keep the pickup reasonably thin while sufficiently magnetizing the screw.

See this web link. Magnetic fields in pickups

This shows FEMM models of the magnetic field of various classic pickup shapes. Short and wide coils like the P90 would suffer lower output if the only source for the field was a single coil pickup with only a set of round individual magnets that do not as fully induce voltage in the outer turns as in the inner turns. It would seem that spreading the magnetic field for this primary short and wide coil geometric reason has also some aperature effects that causes more high frequency harmonic cancellation than a traditional tall, thin single coil pickups. Common listening observations and comments also reflect this effect on P90s as well as humbuckers having a wider aperature.

Joseph J. Rogowski

[Mike Sulzer]

See this web link. Magnetic fields in pickups

This shows FEMM models of the magnetic field of various classic pickup shapes. Short and wide coils like the P90 would suffer lower output if the only source for the field was a single coil pickup with only a set of round individual magnets that do not as fully induce voltage in the outer turns as in the inner turns. It would seem that spreading the magnetic field for this primary short and wide coil geometric reason has also some aperature effects that causes more high frequency harmonic cancellation than a traditional tall, thin single coil pickups. Common listening observations and comments also reflect this effect on P90s as well as humbuckers having a wider aperature.

Joseph J. Rogowski

The law of magnetic induction states that the relevant changing flux is all that is contained within a loop. You seem to be saying that it has something to do with the distance of the changing flux from the wire of the loop. This is not correct.

It is the field at the string that counts; there is no need to study the shape of the permanent field throughout all space.

Surely it s no surprise that a 10,000 turn coil has a lower resonant frequency than a 7,000 turn coil.

[ElysianGuitars]

Aperture doesn't only have to be applied to the magnetic field. The coil width is an aperture. You widen the coil width, you add warmth to the tone. P90s have a much wider coil width than Fender style single coils. The winds obviously make a difference as well, but that's not the only story, is it?

[ElysianGuitars]

Is a slight variation on the design and intention a patentable thing, I don't really know, I'm not a patent guy...not even the slightest clue how that stuff works.

Wouldn't using this design with a different intention still be the same idea. P90 vs humbucker. An oblong coil, wider at one end, designed to do something different. Refining the use of it doesn't seem like a patentable thing or one you could enforce on someone.

I'm not sure how you could patent the shape of a coil.

Again...I don't know, just asking.


I'm guessing Saul Koll didn't bother patenting it, probably didn't think you could or it was a waste of time....explains why you wouldn't see it in any kind of search you did.

For one, I never "used this design" in regards to the Koll pickup, I'd never seen it before coming up with my invention. Secondly, you can patent anything. This coil configuration has never been patented, as far as my research could find, and it's unique enough that I decided to pursue it. If you were to look up pickups patents, you'd see so many different patents on every number of things, it's pretty wild how many are out there, and even how many seemingly step on the toes of other patents.