To hear the laminations of their women

[nhall]

Acrylic Glues

Hey guys...have to report that I tried the arylic glue that Jonson sent me, and it does the job prefectly!!......it appears to stick to any material including magnets, and after approx. 10mins. is set hard enough to work with....easy to mix (2 part just like araldite)...only down side is the other half's complaints about the smell (mind you that could have been the cat...won't hold my hand up to that one)....still I haven't had any glue that works and doesn't smell (shouldn't have been so lazy and done the job indoors)....

Jonson's a cool dude...he's definately worth listening to...has spent a lifetime in engineering / guitar building & repairs, etc for top names / special finishes and special one-off high end furniture for multi-million pound/dollar yachts, etc.....for the quality of his work and finishing he's really in demand (by those slect people he allows to find him!!) .....he's not in this for a slice of anything because he has no intension to actually enter the pickup market....just truly a helpful guy willing to impart a few nuggets from a life's hard-earned experience.....listen and enjoy!!

[Joe Gwinn]

Something that came up in a motors project back in school was that you can also "laminate" a shape out of soft iron wire cemented/glued together into a form, then when the glue sets, saw the shape you want out of the completed lump.

I'm not sure you can get 0.015" iron wire, and I'm not sure of the shape you want, but it's a trick you might keep in your back pocket. We were trying to get a cylindrical "laminated" shape with holes down the axis of the cylinder....

#26 iron wire is 0.0159" in diameter, and is sold in hardware stores as #26 black iron wire. #24 is 0.0201" in diameter.

Commercial iron wire is usually mill-scale insulated, so all you have to do is get it unbelievably clean of the mill oil and other dirt. The scale is a high resistance path that's as good as many transformer laminations. Sizes may be a problem though.

Cleaning is easy with a torch. Just pass the wire through a flame slowly enough that the metal glows red hot. The oil will burn off. One can also heat the wire electrically. Stretching the hot wire slightly and allowing it to cool while stretched will also straighten it.

A layer of varnish applied just after cooling will complete the insulation.

When I was a teenager, I had an old telephone set from the 1920s (at the latest) where the core of the hybrid coil was a parallel bundle of iron wire.

[Dave Kerr]

The grocery bag stock I have is 0.0065" thick, so the whole stack will be 6(0.015)+5(0.0065)= 0.1225, call it 1/8".

Pretty close - I measure .1350, probably due to not applying more than hand-firm pressure on my clamps in fear of squeezing out too much epoxy. Second time worked like a charm when using a file to knock off the irregularities.

A Durabond product specialist called after I filled out the online form asking for distributor info, he suggested that for my purposes Jonson's stuff would be overkill, and didn't seem too interested in dealing with the nickle and dime quantities I'd order.

[Joe Gwinn]

Pretty close - I measure 0.1350, probably due to not applying more than hand-firm pressure on my clamps in fear of squeezing out too much epoxy. Second time worked like a charm when using a file to knock off the irregularities.

Where is the 6,000 psi when we need it?

A Durabond product specialist called after I filled out the online form asking for distributor info, he suggested that for my purposes Jonson's stuff would be overkill, and didn't seem too interested in dealing with the nickel and dime quantities I'd order.

Durabond? Do you mean Permabond? How would the specialist know? Not his decision to make. Did he provide a viable alternative? Get the distributor info anyway.

[Dave Kerr]

Durabond? Do you mean Permabond? How would the specialist know? Not his decision to make. Did he provide a viable alternative? Get the distributor info anyway.

Yup - Permabond, brain cramp there. I'm not likely to order using a credit card, anyway - I'm trying to hide the hobby related expenses in the household budget by paying cash in storefront operations. I've already got enough wire and magnets to last me for some time, I'll keep checking the auto supply stores for the structural acrylics in small quantities. It'd just be a purchase for the coll factor, anyway, as the epoxy seems to have done the job for my small batch.

[jonson]

Dave my glue boffin guy turned up again today and dumped a bag of pearl animal glue and a bag of rabbit skin size glue on a bench and said that will do it. Said he has stuck brass plates together with it so I'm gonna have to boil some up and see. I have got a lot of reservations here as i'm really not sure a bunch of dead cows and bunnies is gonna do the job and if it does'nt I will have fun telling him.

[David Schwab]

Most of the luthiers over at MIMF swear by hot hide glue. I haven't used it myself.

Let us know how you make out. I might try laminating some steel this weekend if I get the time.

[Dave Kerr]

For the non-engineers among us, 3M's site has some good stuff related to their product line. Their eStore sells small quantities of various stuff with reasonable shipping costs - I'm braving the wrath of she who watches the household budget by springing for the DP 810 for about $16. Oh, the above link has a nice cleavage shot, too.

[jonson]

Should be good Dave. Most 3m stuff is well ok but it is a bit pricey in the uk. I use a lot of their Fastbond waterbased contact adhesive as it rolls on super thin on large areas and sticks like *********. Not sure the long cure of this 810 would allways suit me but that maybe where the smell has gone I dunno. Let us know how you get on but quick advice if they send you a nozzel then throw it away as you will only use it once and what is left in it will set rock solid, so just squeeze and mix like epoxy. Tried the animal and rabbit glue my guy said would stick metal and he was right it did, but. it also peeled apart with a small amount of effort so I'll bung that idea.

[Joe Gwinn]

Tried the animal and rabbit glue my guy said would stick metal and he was right it did, but. it also peeled apart with a small amount of effort so I'll bung that idea.

No surprise. I wondered about that suggestion. Hide glue is very good on porous natural materals like wood and leather.

[jonson]

Well Idid say Joe I did'nt think the bunnies would do it. Turns out he(glueboffin) used it to stick brass inlays in and I suspect that did work but even scientists agree that it is really impossible for a bumble bee to fly but it does so had to give it a go and wo'nt do again.Stick to the old acrylic I think as no failures there

[Joe Gwinn]

Well I did say Joe I didn't think the bunnies would do it. Turns out he (glueboffin) used it to stick brass inlays in and I suspect that did work but even scientists agree that it is really impossible for a bumble bee to fly but it does so had to give it a go and won't do again. Stick to the old acrylic I think as no failures there

OK. I hope he roughened the back of those brass sheets, and that they were small in area.

On bumblebees, there is a story to tell. My father (born in 1921) is an aeronautical engineer, and he told me the story, which I think dates to the 1930s. As the story goes, a grad student in his PhD thesis dutifully ground through the best aerodynamic theory of his day, proving that bumblebees cannot fly. Of course they do fly, and quite well - the point being made was that "the best aerodynamic theory of his day" wasn't good enough.

It is only recently, the last ten years or so, that an adequate theory of insect flight has emerged.

The basic problem was that in 1930 there were no computers of sufficient power to handle aerodynamics, so people were forced to make a large number of simplifying assumptions to get solvable equations. With the computers of today (80 years later), most of those simplifications are no longer needed.

[jonson]

Good explanation Joe. I'd only heard the first bit that they were not really built to fly but as you say now we have an answer, but, i'm still not going to keep this animal glue in stock till 2087 and hope by then it works.
Next post if I do one will be 2000 miles SW of here so bring you all back a glittzy useless souvenir.

[David Schwab]

OK. I hope he roughened the back of those brass sheets, and that they were small in area.

I would use hide glue for wood, but inlays? Not even shell. Epoxy or CA is the way to go.

It is only recently, the last ten years or so, that an adequate theory of insect flight has emerged.

The basic problem was that in 1930 there were no computers of sufficient power to handle aerodynamics, so people were forced to make a large number of simplifying assumptions to get solvable equations. With the computers of today (80 years later), most of those simplifications are no longer needed.

And high speed cameras! Now we know they rotate their wings as well as "flap". The wings of a bumblebee bend to create vortices that provide lift on both the upward and downward strokes. The original miscalculation was based on fixed rigid smooth wings.

One of my favorite creatures.

[Joe Gwinn]

And high speed cameras! Now we know they rotate their wings as well as "flap". The wings of a bumblebee bend to create vortices that provide lift on both the upward and downward strokes. The original miscalculation was based on fixed rigid smooth wings.

Actually, they did have high-speed cameras back then. Spark photography was available in the 1850s and mercury thyratron stroboscopes were commercially available in the 1930s. Xenon flashlamps were invented during WW2.

The problem was that even if people did realize that insects rotated their wings during flight (they probably did), the math was too complex to solve with paper and pencil.