Making flatwork? Steel Rule Dies?

[R.G.]

Anyone tried steel rule dies for making flatwork?

[David Schwab]

I think someone here was having a machine shop stamp some out this way.

[R.G.]

I was speculating that one could make up a steel-rule die plate that could be used on a cheap HF arbor press and blank them out by the zillions.

The stuff is supposed to be set up in 3/4 maple/birch plywood slots, but can be held by poured epoxy as well. If the cutting force is under the one ton rating of the HF press, I think you could just press out one at a time as you need them.

A fancy die would have both a top and a bottom, but that might need too much press force.

With accurate blanks, one could place them in a fixture with drilling jig holes and through-drill them in batches.

[NightWinder]

WOuld'nt you want your cutter to stamp out the holes? More money I'm sure, but it would eleminate the drilling process....

[Scott S.]

Hard to see in the pic but is this the type of die you are discussing?

http://music-electronics-forum.com/s...=bill+lawrence

[NightWinder]

I think so. I'm not too sure what these guys are thinking of using, but that arbor should be plenty....

[R.G.]

WOuld'nt you want your cutter to stamp out the holes? More money I'm sure, but it would eleminate the drilling process....

Sure - in perfect world. What didn't get into my post is the process I went through to get to there.
(a) Hey! How hard could it be to punch out flatwork. Obviously it's possible.
(b) Is it possible for in-garage work instead of shipping it off to a stamping company? (much research on stamping and die making follows...)
(c) Yes - maybe. Quick - and amateurish - calculations of the shear strength of Forbon and a "typical" shape indicates that it may be possible to stamp the shape in a 1-Ton press.
(d) 1-ton is significant, because you can get a 1-ton manual arbor press at Harbor Freight for about $50.

So there's a rough fit for getting a cheap, home tool for making a die work.

(e) what do dies cost? (much internet research follows) Ah. Could be maybe $1K for a simplish punch for well-controlled sizes on a custom die. But
(f) steel rule dies cost 20-35% of the cost of a "real" die. That gets it into the $200-$350 class for someone to just make a die.
(g) Steel rule dies are somewhat amenable to home-made. They are a ready shaped steel strip set into grooves in 3/4" plywood; the grooves are cut by jigsaw. Hmmm. Sounds like a garage process of about the complexity of making a coil winding machine or a pickup.
(h) but steel rule dies are limited to a single-plane cutting. Single plane cutting puts the maximum requirement on press pressure, and that's limited to 1-T.
(i) therefore, it's probably safer to plan for a steel-rule die that doesn't cut the holes, too.
(j) that's probably OK, because I can stack up a batch of blanks into a jig, then drill them easily, maybe six or ten at a time.

Hence my thoughts about drilling, not doing it in the die. The process I used was optimized for using cheap, easily available tooling and no external machine shop work.

Hard to see in the pic but is this the type of die you are discussing?

That is definitely the HF 1Ton press, or a close relative. However, the die he's using looks like a shop-made piercing die, with a non-planar surface.

If you make the die surface non-planar, so you pierce the stuff at a couple of places and have the rest of the surface curved, the die acts more like scissors than a punch, and the press force needed declines a lot. It makes holes easier too, because you can stagger the hole punch heights and only punch one at a time. That reduces the peak press force too.

I don't trust my ME enough to say a planar-surface die would cut a full pickup flat with holes in a 1T manual press.

But I think that photo definitely shows that this is possible.

[NightWinder]

Sure is. I thought of simply drillint a locator hole in a strip of forbon(rectangle), punching the holes(say 30-50 pieces). Using the spacing holes as locators, and shearing off the outher shapes, as the hole would keep it in place??? Brains burning now. Steve Johnson would know best. Kinda the ideal he used for his rowe Covers?

[jonson]

May work guys but I think it is gonna need a lot more than 1 ton. Iv'e tried forbon with a steel rule die made by a laser die co. They make them for the cardboard box people and at 12ton it wasn't very clean. Iv'e gone back to my roots Wade and on a time trial have done 36 strat sets in an hour, thats obviously 144 sets in a 4hour morning or 120 with a tea break. Done on an overhand router with a pin underneath. Very safe jigging no fears of accidents and though I don't want to make strats it shows it can be done.
Iv'e got a pair of 3 phase big routers but they are not needed for this as I knocked up a small wooden system to house a hobby router and that does the job no probs. Secret is in the jigs and the type of cutter and how long does it take most people to get through that many sets. I'll do drawings and pics of the set up if anyone fancies a go.

[R.G.]

May work guys but I think it is gonna need a lot more than 1 ton. Iv'e tried forbon with a steel rule die made by a laser die co. They make them for the cardboard box people and at 12ton it wasn't very clean.

Bummer.

... Done on an overhand router with a pin underneath. Very safe jigging no fears of accidents and though I don't want to make strats it shows it can be done.

Yeah, an overhead pin router would do that job and more. They're a bit costly.

I knocked up a small wooden system to house a hobby router and that does the job no probs. Secret is in the jigs and the type of cutter and how long does it take most people to get through that many sets. I'll do drawings and pics of the set up if anyone fancies a go.

That would be interesting to see at least.

[chevalij]

I was getting a die set made with steel rules. Actually, did get the top made. It cut the outer shape perfectly. Problem comes with the holes. The steel rule dies use a punch. For clearance, the punch is tapered. In my die, the punch made the holes the right size, but the taper ruined the flatwork as there was no "grip" on the magnets. I figure I could get the die remade with smaller punches, but I just haven't got to it yet. Also, the punch I tried mine on was a specific punch press. It actually took about 4 tons to punch through the forbon including holes. The grooves are not cut by jigsaw, these were all laser cut from a Cad dwg I provided to the company. Accurate as hell actually.

My next attempt will be to just cut the outer shape, and mark the hole position for accurate drilling. This die was $210 Cdn.


die pic

[R.G.]

OK, found this: MLCS daisy pin router arm at about $50.

Was that the kind of thing you had in mind?

Or did you have in mind the setup with an overhead router and the guide pin below the router?

[David Schwab]

I'm doing something interesting on my latest pickup... I'm having the flatwork "printed" using Stereo-lithography, aka 3D printing.

I'll post pictures this weekend.

[R.G.]

That would be a really great way to have it done, but I would worry about the cost. Stereolithography is neat stuff. We used to proto fancy plastic parts in that.

[jonson]

R.G. Will post some pics and description after the weekend.