Playing with a mildly unusual 70s Jap HB that thinks it's a Wide Range.

[Plectrum]

I have here an HB from a Japanese knockoff 70s telecaster custom.
It's actually not terrible quality as a guitar (though, someone has scrubbed the decals from the stock). It's become a bit of a project to make a usable "unusual" personalized guitar. It's a one piece body (probably alder? no gaps in the paint) and maple neck. And - I like old wood.

The HB is a mostly visual attempt at a Wide Range it differs in quite a few aspects:
It's interesting in that it appears to have an A5 bar mag like a 'tron. Fatter but narrower across than a PAF.
It has only 6 screw poles, in the offset-3s configuration like a WRHB.
The bobbins are transparent (square end), with coils filling only perhaps just over 1/2 of the winding space up, yet reading 9.5kΩ, so I imagine it's thin wire.
It's PAF size.

My problem... I personally cannot bear the neck "plain string" poles being out of the regular sweet-spot. They sound just a bit more quacky and with less of the "ooh" voicing.
The Wide Range don't suffer anything like the same problem as there are of course 12 poles, with the ones under the cover still sensing the string, albeit, making slightly less contribution to the tone.
I try not to be fussy... but this has gotten to me a number of times as much as I have tried to get on with it.

So, my question is...
If I take the 3 screws out of one bobbin and add them to the other for 6-in-a-row how can this affect the electronic properties of the pickup?
I know they will remain under the cover (which appears to be nickel silver? very thin and not brass) but I will screw the exposed poles down to hopefully compensate enough.
One coil will end up an air-coil. less inductance etc. Will adding the metal to the other coil even this out or are there other considerations?

I know I can just do it - but I'm tinkering at the moment and am looking for any insights.

Anyone else have this issue with any other offset-3 pickups? Including Z config?
Also, regarding WRHBs in general, would CuNiFe mags affect the inductance differently to Alnico slug?

[LtKojak]

I have here an HB from a Japanese knockoff 70s telecaster custom.
It's actually not terrible quality as a guitar (though, someone has scrubbed the decals from the stock). It's become a bit of a project to make a usable "unusual" personalized guitar. It's a one piece body (probably alder? no gaps in the paint) and maple neck. And - I like old wood.

The HB is a mostly visual attempt at a Wide Range it differs in quite a few aspects:
It's interesting in that it appears to have an A5 bar mag like a 'tron. Fatter but narrower across than a PAF.
It has only 6 screw poles, in the offset-3s configuration like a WRHB.
The bobbins are transparent (square end), with coils filling only perhaps just over 1/2 of the winding space up, yet reading 9.5kΩ, so I imagine it's thin wire.
It's PAF size.

My problem... I personally cannot bear the neck "plain string" poles being out of the regular sweet-spot. They sound just a bit more quacky and with less of the "ooh" voicing.
The Wide Range don't suffer anything like the same problem as there are of course 12 poles, with the ones under the cover still sensing the string, albeit, making slightly less contribution to the tone.
I try not to be fussy... but this has gotten to me a number of times as much as I have tried to get on with it.

So, my question is...
If I take the 3 screws out of one bobbin and add them to the other for 6-in-a-row how can this affect the electronic properties of the pickup?
I know they will remain under the cover (which appears to be nickel silver? very thin and not brass) but I will screw the exposed poles down to hopefully compensate enough.
One coil will end up an air-coil. less inductance etc. Will adding the metal to the other coil even this out or are there other considerations?

I know I can just do it - but I'm tinkering at the moment and am looking for any insights.

Anyone else have this issue with any other offset-3 pickups? Including Z config?
Also, regarding WRHBs in general, would CuNiFe mags affect the inductance differently to Alnico slug?

No pics, no can do.

[Plectrum]

Jaysus.
See what you made me do!
I bust a hookup wire!

No pics, no can do.

There's an A5 mag under the unit for reference...

[the great waldo]

Hello Plectrum

I'd bin what you have, get yourself one of the newer widerange humbuckers from Fender and swap out the polepieces with alnico rods 0.187" 2, 3, 4, or 5 to Taste and chuck out the original bar magnet, stick a piece of whatever wood/plastic to replace the bar magnet. The 0.187 magnets will fit ok and you'll have a good sounding pickup. You could probably grind a slot in the magnet for apperances.

Cheers

Andrew

[Plectrum]

Hello Plectrum

I'd bin what you have, get yourself one of the newer widerange humbuckers from Fender and swap out the polepieces with alnico rods 0.187" 2, 3, 4, or 5 to Taste and chuck out the original bar magnet, stick a piece of whatever wood/plastic to replace the bar magnet. The 0.187 magnets will fit ok and you'll have a good sounding pickup. You could probably grind a slot in the magnet for apperances.

Cheers

Andrew

Hmm possibly but, I have a drawer full of pickups and I'm not necessarily after a WRHB sound for this. Sure - Certainly not from this as a starting point. I do like them and have played originals a few times - I was recently offered a nice WR equipped 70s thinline.
This unit isn't bad per-se... It has some character. This is a tinkering project - I wanted just to make all the polepiece positions the same and see what I get.
Right now the guitar is in pieces and I have other stuff going on and was just feeling for some ideas.

I'll probably fit something completely different to WRHBs in the end, anyhow.
Something like a 90 in the bridge..?

BTW: The fender reisues are not the right bobbin size or wire gauge are they?
And the WRHB cover won't fit in the guitar either.


I have to say...
Looking at the marketing info, I'm a little shocked.

"Fender '72 Reissue Telecaster 'Wide Range' Humbucker - bridge pickup as used on Custom and Deluxe models, designed for Fender in the early '70s by Seth Lover (inventor of the humbucker pickup)."

These units were not designed by Lover. How can they legally claim to be selling a Lover design?
(And less importantly, Lover was one of the inventors of HBs as cool as he was).

As Mr Novak says: "The reissue pickup uses steel screws, and sits on a bar magnet. The Vintage uses CuNiFe threaded rod magnets. This makes a SERIOUS difference in tone. Other than the 3x3 pole pieces it is a Gibson style humbucker, and NOTHING like a vintage WRHB"

[LtKojak]

Jaysus.
See what you made me do!
I bust a hookup wire!

[ATTACH=CONFIG]35833[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]35834[/ATTACH]

There's an A5 mag under the unit for reference...

I don't think there's something worth saving there... sorry!

[Plectrum]

I don't think there's something worth saving there... sorry!

Thanks for your input - But, without having heard it?

My question was an electronic one.

OT:
Isn't the sonic performance itself why we do this?

Just my 2c "just to chew the fat" because I find this topic fascinating - but:
There are benchmark tones that have been created with units that weren't built to theoretical "uncompromised quality" standards... And those standards change due to subjective ideas and consensus. Ideas of aesthetic quality and what's "best" are always subjective. And transient.
As much as I love Duncan's abilities and products... The silver wire units were just executive toys, IMO. I think he knew it.
Lipstick pickups look like crap, construction "ethic" wise.
The <5k, ceramic mag strat unit "garbage" on early tokais and jap guitars are used in preference by some funk players because they DI very well (And two players I know tell people they are custom wound secret pickups). EMGs are crap to so many people, and yet are now in vogue with the metal scene.
I have an underwound, microphonic HB from another garbage guitar that works incredibly as a low-fat biting neck pickup in dark guitars.

I also love some expensive units... vintage and new... I get the whole "pursuit of excellence" paradigm, when there is a real advantage...but the slavish adherence to "special" corksniffing construction law only gurantees that some people will like them, and many who when REALLY tested, show they aren't quite as good at being golden eared as their reps made them out to be (and science/studies will explain exactly why). Regardless of maple spacers and vintage correct blah...
It doesn't equate to better music, better players and most importantly "better" ears. The esoteric stuff can make us more contented when playing, knowing that people like what we have... which IS a valid reason to buy into it all. But it's 90% psychology, often lost on others. One thing formal, methodological study has shown us, is that we are intrinsically crap and determining the true causality in aesthetic issues in so many cases. That's why we have the legends.

The real, skilled "guitarist" will in fact be able to make anything work (as is sometimes discussed but often unmentioned), by finding it's strengths and using hs technique and instinct, and not worrying about gear prestige and in-crowd consensus.

[big_teee]

If you want to work on them.
Here's what I would probably do.
I would probably keep the covers and base plate.
You could make new bobbins, to get the magnets closer to the wire?
With the right sized rod magnets, have 3 long rods on each side, and 3 short rods on each side.
I would probably go with 3 A2-A3s through the holes on each side, and 3 A5s on each side under the cover.
Depending on the amount of turns used, you should be able to come up with a unique sound.
GL,
T

[Plectrum]

If you want to work on them.
Here's what I would probably do.
I would probably keep the covers and base plate.
You could make new bobbins, to get the magnets closer to the wire?
With the right sized rod magnets, have 3 long rods on each side, and 3 short rods on each side.
I would probably go with 3 A2-A3s through the holes on each side, and 3 A5s on each side under the cover.
Depending on the amount of turns used, you should be able to come up with a unique sound.
GL,
T

Yes...
This is interesting. But the thought of rewinding (I have no winder) put me off momentarily. Funnily enough these bobbins are a 1/4 inch deep, like the WRHB.
Be interesting to see how much 42 one can get onto them.

I did think about A2 rods... but the A5 under the cover is a great idea, to compensate for the distance...

Thanks for the input!

[mr fab]

I would experiment with it as is, you may also consider installing cut down alnico bar magnet inside the coils, this will definitely give a more single coil like tone and is easily done

experiment with different configurations, until you find a sound you like

[Steve A.]

The real, skilled "guitarist" will in fact be able to make anything work (as is sometimes discussed but often unmentioned), by finding it's strengths and using hs technique and instinct, and not worrying about gear prestige and in-crowd consensus.

There is the saying about trying to turn a sow's ear into a silk purse... I really doubt that you will be able to turn that pickup into something, er, memorable without replacing or rewiring the bobbins for starters as Terry suggested.

Go ahead and try moving the 3 screws to the upper bobbin- the lower bobbin will become an old school dummy coil to reduce hum.*** Depending on how it sounds you might want to add screws from the local hardware store to the lower bobbin.

Good luck!

Steve

*** For a "new school" dummy coil based on the Chiliachki patent you'd want to replace the wire in the lower bobbin with something like 32GA or 36GA magnet wire so it would read maybe 300 ohms. No need for a winder to do that- just wrap it by hand.

Before doing that you would want to see how the pickup sounds with just the upper bobbin connected because that is basically the sound that you would get with a new school dummy coil.

[Peter Naglitsch]

My two cents...

What you have is essentially a pickup that, from the perspective of the plain vs the wound strings are single coils with a dummy coil for hum bucking, just as Steve said. Or more or less anyway. Example, the high e-string will be magnetised a little tiny bit over the coil without pole pieces, but compared with the coil with pole pieces it will contribute very little to the output of the pickup. However, once again just as Steve noted, that coil will eliminate the hum just like an ordinary hum bucker. So if you, as your original thought was, move the screws to one coil you will eventually end up with a low output single coil with a (IMHO) tone-sucking dummy coil, however a hum bucking setup. However the sound of the pickup itself will be more or less the same as there is still one single coil sensing the strings vibrations.

So back to what you don't like what you hear from this pickup. I highly doubt that it is the small displacement of the pole piece (no poles in the coil closest to the neck) that makes you dislike it. That smal difference in distance do have a effect on sound but it is truly minimal IMHO. What you hear and don't like is the crappy pickup itself: a very underwound SC-ish sound with the added effect of a dummy coil that (from my extremely small experience of dummy coils) will make the pickup sound even thinner.

As I see it you have a few options
- Your original idea of moving screws from one coil to the other
- You can ad additional pole pieces to the other coil(s)
- Rebuild the pickup entirely to something that is more "WRHB"-ish in construction
- Get a HB you like and live with the change in visual appearance
- probably something I have forgotten...

Moving the screws from one coil to the other will effectively give you the same sound as you have right now. Only change is the position of the pole piece and as mentioned earlier, IMHO, it will not change much at all. So I don't think that will do you no good. The job is however relative easy, just drill three holes in the base plate and you are done. I would sugest to fabricate three small metal disks and tape/glue them into the empty holes of the cover for looks. The tiny difference in distance from the covered vs the uncovered screws can be minimised into almost non-existing by lowering the exposed screws. Adding extra poles (going from 6 to 12 poles) to the existing pickup is almost as easy. Get six screws with the correct thread, drill six holes, screw the added screws down so that they fit under the cover. Done. Adjust the visible screws as described above and you will probably have a medium output, slightly muffled HB (due to the massive keeper bars loading the impedance) with a tiny bit of filtertron-ish twang. Rebuilding the pickup to a WRHB config means you need to source threaded magnets. Next you get rid of the keeper bars and the magnet. Add a center to the bobbins to give the magnets something to "bite" into. Several problems with that. Small quantities of threaded magnets are indeed available (check Sensmag in China, they used to have skinny threaded magnets that probably will fit into you bobbins) but the shipping cost will kill you projects budget (or so I believe...). There is considerable problems with adding a core to the existing coils and then drilling those core and threading them without damaging the coils/wire. Ditching the project all together is probably the easies way to go. Just get a HB you know you like and you're done.

[LtKojak]

Thanks for your input - But, without having heard it?

I've seen enough of those late '60s, early '70s asian contraptions to know that those are pretty close to unusable due to poor mechanic stability. They squeal like wound pigs.

I love Duncan's abilities and products... The silver wire units were just executive toys, IMO.

I'm almost certain you've never even been in the same room with a Zephyr set, yet you feel comfortable bashing an innovative concept that made a one-of-a-kind product.

Lipstick pickups look like crap, construction "ethic" wise.

You're certainly on a roll, man...

the slavish adherence to "special" corksniffing construction law only gurantees that some people will like them, and many who when REALLY tested, show they aren't quite as good at being golden eared as their reps made them out to be (and science/studies will explain exactly why). Regardless of maple spacers and vintage correct blah...

Is there a point somewhere...?

[big_teee]

Thanks for your input - But, without having heard it?

My question was an electronic one.

OT:
Isn't the sonic performance itself why we do this?

Just my 2c "just to chew the fat" because I find this topic fascinating - but:
There are benchmark tones that have been created with units that weren't built to theoretical "uncompromised quality" standards... And those standards change due to subjective ideas and consensus. Ideas of aesthetic quality and what's "best" are always subjective. And transient.
As much as I love Duncan's abilities and products... The silver wire units were just executive toys, IMO. I think he knew it.
Lipstick pickups look like crap, construction "ethic" wise.
The <5k, ceramic mag strat unit "garbage" on early tokais and jap guitars are used in preference by some funk players because they DI very well (And two players I know tell people they are custom wound secret pickups). EMGs are crap to so many people, and yet are now in vogue with the metal scene.
I have an underwound, microphonic HB from another garbage guitar that works incredibly as a low-fat biting neck pickup in dark guitars.

I also love some expensive units... vintage and new... I get the whole "pursuit of excellence" paradigm, when there is a real advantage...but the slavish adherence to "special" corksniffing construction law only gurantees that some people will like them, and many who when REALLY tested, show they aren't quite as good at being golden eared as their reps made them out to be (and science/studies will explain exactly why). Regardless of maple spacers and vintage correct blah...
It doesn't equate to better music, better players and most importantly "better" ears. The esoteric stuff can make us more contented when playing, knowing that people like what we have... which IS a valid reason to buy into it all. But it's 90% psychology, often lost on others. One thing formal, methodological study has shown us, is that we are intrinsically crap and determining the true causality in aesthetic issues in so many cases. That's why we have the legends.

The real, skilled "guitarist" will in fact be able to make anything work (as is sometimes discussed but often unmentioned), by finding it's strengths and using hs technique and instinct, and not worrying about gear prestige and in-crowd consensus.

I agree with most of that, and we're all entitled to think what we like.
The PAF Lore (which can be a broad interpretation), IMO could also be thrown into the Mythological Category!
My 2 Cents, Don't Shoot!
T

[Plectrum]

I've seen enough of those late '60s, early '70s asian contraptions to know that those are pretty close to unusable due to poor mechanic stability. They squeal like wound pigs.
I'm almost certain you've never even been in the same room with a Zephyr set, yet you feel comfortable bashing an innovative concept that made a one-of-a-kind product.

Without aiming to descend into a pissing contest, in my work I probably do many things you'd be "almost certain" I didn't. I'll leave that there.
The fact I've been given a funky old machine that I'm going to play with for some light, "distractive" fun shouldn't really be taken to reveal anything much about me or the world IMHO.

You're certainly on a roll, man...
Is there a point somewhere...?

As I said to begin with:
"OT:
Just my 2c "just to chew the fat" because I find this topic fascinating "

Lipsticks were "cheaper" and the construction left many of the more standard ideas of good build practice - and they can sound great. I'm sorry not to have laid all this out in simpler, clearer terms.
Luckily - I see some people did get it.