winder issues-- skills, advice in set up?

[Dr. Guitar]

So crank it up, let it drag some, but don't let the wire get hot.

Thanks

[Joe Gwinn]

I might be the only person here with one of those [Schatten] winders...

Mostly you want to drag on the wire. You can actually make the motor stop if you pinch hard enough! I was trying to wind some 30 AWG last week, and the motor is so under powered that it couldn't get started! When eventually it did start, I couldn't get decent tension on the wind.

That winder works fine for more normal gauge wire, but it is easy to slow it down. Lately I have been winding at full speed and letting it slow down just a tad. Even then the coils are not as tight as they could be. On the positive side, it's very hard to break your wire while winding.

So I've reached the limitation of that winder. No doubt a stronger motor would help, but I'm about to start on a new winder. I've wound a bunch of good pickups with it, and it paid for itself, but I'm outgrowing the thing.

I bet there is plenty of space inside the winder. One could fit a larger motor. I built a winder loosely based on Schatten's design, but far more robust. Here is my (corrected) post from 15 December 2006:

I bought new ball-bearing motors from Globe Motors for $36 each. It turned out that plain-bearing motors had a little too much drag due to side-load on the bearing when loaded by the toothed-belt pulley. The only real disadvantage was the 12-14 week wait while they built the motors - Globe has many variations in their catalog, most of which are built only when ordered. I got two motors (one to spin the bobbin, the other to someday power the traverse), but Globe would have let me buy just one.

If anyone cares, the motors I used are Globe model 405A6109-2, 12 volt DC (although I often take it up to 24 volts). The motor body is 1" diameter by 1.125" long, with a 0.156" (3.95mm) diameter by 0.5" shaft sticking out of one end.

This is in the "IM-13" series of DC industrial motors: http://www.globe-motors.com/fullline.html

If you want the next largest motor of the same kind, use something from the IM-15 series. When I designed my winder, I made sure that an IM-15 motor would fit, just in case. It has not proved necessary so far, but a more complex winder will have greater mechanical losses, necessitating a larger motor.

I didn't bother with braking, as I'm driving the motor from a low-impedance power supply, but all DC motors can be braked by connecting a resistor across the leads.

The Globe motor is capable of sustained operation while generating 15 watts. I gather that the motor used by Schatten is at most 5 watts. (If someone can identify the motor well enough for me to get the datasheet, I'll be able to give a definite answer. It will be useful to quantify this, as we know that it isn't quite large enough.)

I've found that simply varying the voltage supplied to the motor suffices to vary the speed; no closed-loop control needed.

I've also found out that this motor (like all DC motors) generates lots of commutator noise, especially when loaded. If you plan to put any electronics in the winder housing, provide a dedicated metal-walled compartment for the motor, with bypass capacitors to ground (the metal wall) to contain the noise.

[David Schwab]

I bet there is plenty of space inside the winder. One could fit a larger motor. I built a winder loosely based on Schatten's design, but far more robust. Here is my (corrected) post from 15 December 2006:

Yes, plenty of space. I remember that post.

I had stated the make and model of the Schatten motor once... I'll have to look it up again.

[Joe Gwinn]

Yes, plenty of space. I remember that post.

I recall that photo too. What kind of electric motor is that?

[Dr. Guitar]

What about too much tension? Won't your coil eventually warp and you pick up die out on you? I have been putting a lot of Bare Knuckles Single coils in customers guitars lately. I notice that all of his pick ups are warped from day one. Isn't that a warning sign?

On the Schatten winder, something I did right away, was sand the guide arm with fine grit sand paper (up to 1500) till it was nice and shiny. I noticed the wire wouldn't guide back and forth easily, this took care of it.

[David Schwab]

I recall that photo too. What kind of electric motor is that?

OK I found the info..

Motor, 9V, EG 520AD, 2400 rpm, CW rotation

Seems to be a Mabuchi EG-520AD motor.

Here's the old post on the old forum too:

http://www.firebottle.com/fireforum/...5816764bPdyt2V

[DoctorX]

picture of winding machine used at DiMarzio

I have a DiMarzio catalog from either 1983 or 1984 (don't recall), which has a partial photograph of a pickup winder set up that was designed in house. While the motor itself is not clearly shown (the bobbin 'holder' and traverse wire guide are), I know for certain it was an AC motor, at least 3/4 to 1 HP, and the case of the motor had cooling fins like you would find on an old heat sink. It was a Sears Craftsman motor. It might have been variable speed out of the box. These winders were built to keep going. In the 80's, when DiMarzio was pumping out P/U's like there was no tomorrow, these machines were going all the time. The motor may have been as much as 1 1/2 HP, but admittedly, this is a stretch, and you could probably get away with less. Mind you, these were single spindle machines. These were also had LED counters and speed controls where the spindle would slow down automatically towards the end of the preset wind before stopping. They would set the turns counter and let it fly.

I will scan this photo tomorrow, and post it here.

They used wire spools from elektrisola, "Wisker disks" on top of the wire spools from Azonic (http://www.azonicproducts.com/wisker.html) to assist in de-reeling, and fed the wire straight up through a polished metal "thimble" (sort of) to narrow and straighten the wire "flow" before passing over a pulley, across and through a felt wiper tensioning device, down to another wheel, then 90 degrees to the traverse feeder, which appears to be a rod, split lengthwise, polished and used to keep the wire inline with the bobbin holders, which themselves were beveled on the inside edge to assist winding. As far as I can recall, the people winding the bobbins did not hold the wire to moderate tension.

Here's some other trivia for you:

Since DiMarzio had a "problem" with pickups walking out the door, their chief engineer had created a rather interesting employee "anti-theft" device. It was a long rod mounted vertically on a metal tube, that people were told was an 'antenna' that would detect pickups if removed from the building via the employee entrance / exit. This would force people to hug the wall opposite the antenna to get past it (it was on a large spring loaded hinge in case people had to get out of there in a hurry. It did not impede 'egress' in any way (that was an inside joke to those at DiMarzio who ARE WATCHING). The magnetometer / alarm (red light) which would detect "wandering" pickups was inside the wall the people had to slide along to get out. Sneaky devils. (Note to MA: I bought a cabin in Newfoundland. It's COLD. Icebergs. You'd like the weather).


DoctorX

[kevinT]

I might be the only person here with one of those winders...

I still have my schatten winder

[David Schwab]

I still have my schatten winder

Oh that's right... now I remember you have one.

I still like it for what's it's good at. It fits in a box in the corner, and when I want to wind I plop it on the kitchen table! When I'm done, back in the box it goes. Its like one of those 4 track Porta studios as compared to me sitting at the computer in Cubase.

We are putting together a more robust machine at the workshop. The Schatten stays at home where I tinker more.

[Joe Gwinn]

OK I found the info..

Motor, 9V, EG 520AD, 2400 rpm, CW rotation

Seems to be a Mabuchi EG-520AD motor.

Here's the old post on the old forum too:

http://www.firebottle.com/fireforum/...5816764bPdyt2V

The power supply is 500 ma at 9 v, or 4.5 watts, so that's the limit. This is one third of what the Globe motor develops. If the wall-wart isn't being too heavily loaded, it could be 1/4 or 1/5 of the Globe motor.

Mabuchi has no such motor anymore: http://www.mabuchi-motor.co.jp/en_US/. I have not been able to come up with a datasheet. What is the diameter and length of the motor housing, in millimeters? This will allow me to find a similar motor.

[NightWinder]

What about too much tension? Won't your coil eventually warp and you pick up die out on you? I have been putting a lot of Bare Knuckles Single coils in customers guitars lately. I notice that all of his pick ups are warped from day one. Isn't that a warning sign?

On the Schatten winder, something I did right away, was sand the guide arm with fine grit sand paper (up to 1500) till it was nice and shiny. I noticed the wire wouldn't guide back and forth easily, this took care of it.

I hear they have a public forum now, exclusive to them....I bet if you put a post on there and title it "How come your bobbin coil shapes are warped"...It would get blasted off quicker that shit. That will also be your answer.

[DoctorX]

>>>another movie clip from Seymour Duncan<<<

check this clip out, and be sure to use the "pause" button often...

http://www.moli.com/p/moli_roller/858/0#

note the bits in the beginning...the magnetizer (I posted plans for a similar sized one on this forum a while ago), the "wisker disk" on top of the wire spool, and I could be wrong, but it looks like there are 4 wire feeds above the spindle. Maybe the winder shown can be setup to do multiple bobbins, or multiple winds on the same bobbin.

Doctor X

[DoctorX]

1984 DiMarzio catalog page

you will have to rotate the pdf 90 degrees to view it right side up.

the "horizontal lines" you see behind the traverse mechanism are the "cooling fins" on the motor case I mentioned yesterday. The bobbin is mounted on a steel bobbin "winding fixture" with the other side of the fixture off to show how the bobbin is set.

DoctorX

[chevalij]

I also noticed in the text, that thier tolerance is 5%. Seems pretty big to me. Or am I the only one that tries to get like 1% ? Even at 6k, that's an allowance of 60 ohms, turning 6k into 5.94 - 6.06. Now that I type it out, even that is unacceptable for me.

[David Schwab]

Mabuchi has no such motor anymore: http://www.mabuchi-motor.co.jp/en_US/. I have not been able to come up with a datasheet. What is the diameter and length of the motor housing, in millimeters? This will allow me to find a similar motor.

I noticed that myself. I assumed it's a Mabuchi because that was one of their model numbers. Schatten still list that motor, so it's either some other make, or he bought a bunch of them.

When I get a chance later today I will open the winder and check it out.