Differences in sound of the same pickup wound to the same DCR with different wire AWG

[big_teee]

Well I'm just asking all this questions to have more theoretical knowledge from "The Experts". I've winded just one pickup so far, but I wouldn't like to throw away some wire just experimenting if some people already knows what could happen if X Y Z thing is done in the P Q R way. Sharing experiences/discuss stuff is the main point of the forum, isn't it?.

Also any information registered here will be helpful in the future for other people that wants to know more about this wire gauge subject.

To a point.
There is no substitute for acquiring experience, by bending, and winding wire.
A lot of these questions are subjective.
You pretty much asked the same thing, several times, different ways about 42 vs 43.
That same question is getting a little tiring!
Custom winding is by in large something you have to learn as you go.
Jump in and wind some. As far as the money required for winding, you have to pay to play!
This thread is kind of reminding me of some that wound up in the Septic Tank.
Who knows, this one may wind up in there too!
T

[John Kolbeck]

Well I'm just asking all this questions to have more theoretical knowledge from "The Experts". I've winded just one pickup so far, but I wouldn't like to throw away some wire just experimenting if some people already knows what could happen if X Y Z thing is done in the P Q R way. Sharing experiences/discuss stuff is the main point of the forum, isn't it?.

Also any information registered here will be helpful in the future for other people that wants to know more about this wire gauge subject.

If you search through past threads about technical matters on this forum, you'll see that there are two divided camps, one group that thinks of pickups are electrical components, and another group that sees them principally as works of art, and for whatever reason, the group that sees them as art seem to insist, very strongly, that attempts to understand pickups in electrical terms be foregone in favor of experimentation, as in, try it out, then report on how you feel your pickup experiment subjectively effects the tone.

A better forum for technical understanding might be Physics Forum's Electrical Engineering sub-forum https://www.physicsforums.com/forums...gineering.102/ Even though many of the participants aren't familiar with guitar pickups specifically, some of them should be familiar with transducers in general, and guitar pickups relate close enough to inductors that many of them should be able to answer questions about the consequences of using varying wire gauges.

[LtKojak]

Well I'm just asking all this questions to have more theoretical knowledge from "The Experts". I've winded just one pickup so far, but I wouldn't like to throw away some wire just experimenting if some people already knows what could happen if X Y Z thing is done in the P Q R way. Sharing experiences/discuss stuff is the main point of the forum, isn't it?.

Also any information registered here will be helpful in the future for other people that wants to know more about this wire gauge subject.

This kind of questions belong to the Beginner/Hobbyist section.

[LtKojak]

If you search through past threads about technical matters on this forum, you'll see that there are two divided camps, one group that thinks of pickups are electrical components, and another group that sees them principally as works of art, and for whatever reason, the group that sees them as art seem to insist, very strongly, that attempts to understand pickups in electrical terms be foregone in favor of experimentation, as in, try it out, then report on how you feel your pickup experiment subjectively effects the tone.

John, with all due respect, you simply don't know what you're talking about.

So please, refrain to emit judgement on things and/or persons you obviously don't understand.

[Mike Sulzer]

John, with all due respect, you simply don't know what you're talking about.

So please, refrain to emit judgement on things and/or persons you obviously don't understand.

Yet you answer this way:

Will 2 pickups have approximately the same output if they are winded with the same number of turns with different wire gauge? Let's assume that the 2 pickups are exactly the same in all aspects except wire gauge (one 42 and the other 43)

In a nutshell, no.

HTH,

Obviously, pickups wound with the same number of turns of #42 or #43 will have approximately the same output.

If you think it is your job to tell people how wrong they are, why not at least get some of the basics right yourself?

[LtKojak]

Obviously, pickups wound with the same number of turns of #42 or #43 will have approximately the same output.

Not after my notes:

HB 2x5000 turns, AWG42, 7.5K DCR, A5, 475 mV.
HB 2x5000 turns, AWG43, 10.2K DCR, A5, 398 mV.

HTH,

[alexirae]

I don't want to offend you with my lack of knowledge but, how you measured the resulting output of each coil?

[LtKojak]

I don't want to offend you with my lack of knowledge but, how you measured the resulting output of each coil?

A rig was setup so an arm would hit the strings with the same force, then a pup was put under both the neck and the bridge position. The test was to measure the output difference between positions.The resulting numbers are the average of ten readings under those conditions. The difference was 11.5%, if anyone cares.

HTH,

[Mike Sulzer]

A rig was setup so an arm would hit the strings with the same force, then a pup was put under both the neck and the bridge position. The test was to measure the output difference between positions.The resulting numbers are the average of ten readings under those conditions. The difference was 11.5%, if anyone cares.

HTH,

With a normal load on a humbucker, the difference given your measured DC resistances would be a bit over one percent.

If I understand what you mean by "The test was to measure the output difference between positions.", then I do not understand why this would be a valid measurement of the difference between pickups wound with #42 and #43.

[Leo_Gnardo]

A rig was setup so an arm would hit the strings with the same force, then a pup was put under both the neck and the bridge position. The test was to measure the output difference between positions.The resulting numbers are the average of ten readings under those conditions. The difference was 11.5%, if anyone cares.

HTH,

I think we're not clear whether the 11.5% difference was between pickups wound 42 & 43 gauge, or between neck & bridge positions.

If it's between gauges that's more than I would have expected, a bit surprised but if that's the facts then that's what it tiz. Thanks for sharing the results & method of your experiment. All respect to you AND Mike Sulzer!

[LtKojak]

I think we're not clear whether the 11.5% difference was between pickups wound 42 & 43 gauge, or between neck & bridge positions.

Bridge and neck position. The mV readings were the actual p'up output readings. The p'ups used were Gotoh, found in an old jap no-name LP guitar.

[John Kolbeck]

Bridge and neck position. The mV readings were the actual p'up output readings. The p'ups used were Gotoh, found in an old jap no-name LP guitar.

The neck position of the guitar produces a higher output on account of the string moving at a higher velocity in that location, whereas the string moves at a slower velocity near the bridge, resulting in less output, all other things being equal.

[John Kolbeck]

Will a pickup have the same inductance with the same number of turns of different wire gauge?

Here's an outside source that makes reference to this issue:

Inductance: The Misconceptions, Myths, and Truth (Size Matters) | In Compliance Magazine

It is common for someone to expect the inductance of a circuit will be reduced by increasing the conductor size. This will be examined a little later, but it is worth the time to look at a simple formula for finding the inductance of a simple isolated loop. Equation 4 allows us to calculate the inductance of a wire loop [1].



Where:
L = loop inductance
a = loop radius
r0 = wire radius

The size of the loop is determined by a, the radius of the loop. This radius is both outside the natural log function and inside the function. The radius of the wire, r0, is only within the log function, and so the inductance varies much more slowly with the radius of the wire. Figure 2 shows the relative change in total loop inductance as either the loop radius or the wire
radius changes. It is clear that the loop area has a much more significant impact on loop inductance. (The relative impact of the wire size was so small compared to the loop area that a log scale was required to see the effect of wire radius change!)

And since the output voltage most closely correlates with the pickup's inductance, it follows that the choice of wire gauge is going to have a small impact on the overall output.

What I'm less sure about is the consequence of having a larger coil as a result of using larger wire. I suppose you end up producing more current, which doesn't matter, but you maintain roughly the same voltage, which does matter.

[Mike Sulzer]

A pickup is is a multi turn coil, and there is a well known equation for determining the inductance including its shape, for air core. It probably does not work so well with steel in the core. I agree that the inductance does not change much, but the changes that happen might be more be due to the change of the shape of the coil as more turns are added rather than directly from the wire diameter.

The output, neglecting small changes in loading effects from the altered resistance, goes closely with the number of turns until it gets so fat that the flux looping around starts to cancel. Inductance goes with the square of the number of turns for constant coil shape. But the shape changes as you add more turns, and so it goes as somewhat less than the square, in practice.

Here's an outside source that makes reference to this issue:

Inductance: The Misconceptions, Myths, and Truth (Size Matters) | In Compliance Magazine



And since the output voltage most closely correlates with the pickup's inductance, it follows that the choice of wire gauge is going to have a small impact on the overall output.

What I'm less sure about is the consequence of having a larger coil as a result of using larger wire. I suppose you end up producing more current, which doesn't matter, but you maintain roughly the same voltage, which does matter.

[John Kolbeck]

Does anybody happen to know; if I wind a single coil with with 42 AWG, and another with 43 AWG, so that for each pickup I get the same inductance and aim for the same resonant peak, will the 43 AWG pickup pick up less RF interference since there smaller coil has less conductive mass, and therefore like a smaller antenna? Could I get a better signal to noise ratio with the finer wire, or should I expect that they would be the same?