PAFs that sound like sh*t

[R.G.]

One factor is that since a PAF is microphonic the acoustics of the guitar have more effect on the sound. If you have a dark sound PAF in an already dark sounding guitar it may sound terrible. But put the same PAF in a bright sounding guitar and it may be a perfect match. The neck thickness varies quite a bit from guitar to guitar very often and a thicker necked guitar will tend to sound brighter.

It does stand to reason that if the pickup is microphonic, it can pick up guitar vibrations.

Here's how I translate that: If you want to know how a pickup sounds, you must also see how it performs as a contact microphone as well as a string movement pickup. There's a whole set of frequency responses, resonances, etc. about the microphonics that need measuring too. And near as I can tell, nobody does.

I'm guessing that this may be about 90% of how a pickup tone changes from guitar to guitar, as well as one of the argument-starters about pickup tone - a pickup sounds good in one guitar and bad in another, and both sides of the argument are dead correct, so no one can win.

The other factor is that I think that it is likely Gibson had more than one winding machine during the PAF era. The way the machine is set up will effect the how the wire is wound on the bobbin even if each had the same turn per layer count. In addition Gibson probably used the the same winder to do PAF's, P-90's, etc.. and each time the machine was re-set-up was another opportunity to inadvertently change the winding characteristics.

OK, that makes sense - change the tension traverse, etc. you change the coil winding format, and that makes a difference in how it sounds. All hand winders are heavily invested in that premise. The question then becomes how do you identify good from bad winds, with an aim to replicating the good ones and avoiding the bad ones? Not knowing this last means you're flying blind.

Which tensions are good, what amount of traverse? We have the conventional wisdom that laying one wire right next to the next is Very Bad. We have the partial conventional wisdom that guiding by hand so that the position of the wire is chaotically unpredictable is Very Good. Obviously, the two are different, but Mother Nature being the kind of lady She is, the exact placement of wires relative to one another matters, right? Which placements are good and which are bad, and WHY????

I have this sneaking suspicion that there is an uber-pickup winding pattern, and maybe more than one, with repeated wire crossings at very specific angles that is the very peak of pickup goodness, if only we could find that angle. Winding more hand winds is not going to tell us how to make an uber-pickup.

The state of pickup winding today is that we can't even use genetic algorithms to hunt for the good winds, and we certainly can't decide we want X response and have any certainty we'll get there, except by trying to replicate. And replicating a hand-wind is a contradiction in terms, right?

Still another factor is magnet variations.

Magnets matter, obviously - but HOW??? Possum thinks that there are no bad magnets, just weaker and stronger. Is that right? Only the magnet strength matters? What about DCR, ACR and eddy currents?

[kevinT]

You know what, I might just buy that or another Leesona and then I'm gonna be number 1 on You Tube cutting it up with an oxy-actylene torch to the tune of Wango Tango by Ted Nugent.

Spence,

It sounds as if you have some pent-up anger issues.

That would be no fun and a lot of work on your part to cut up the machine. Instead, I'll buy you a Larry DiMarzio punching bag doll that you can use to release your hostilities.

[JGundry]

I bought the Leesona 102 that was on Ebay. I did some hunting to see if replacement gears are available and they are not. But I discovered that that the machine on Ebay has been retrofitted with a variable speed clutch mechanism so you don't need to change the gears on that machine to get different traverse speeds. The traverse still is controlled by the Leesona 102 cam and gear box but the drive shaft that powers the gear box can be controlled with a variable speed dial. The company that makes the variable speed mechanism still makes repairs and rebuilds the retrofit part. I think when I get it I will probably determine that the computer winder that I made is a better alternative but I will at the very least be able to study the machine in action. Either that or I will have a 500 pound conversation piece.

The main thing with the magnets is that the grade of Alnico and the gauss level will have an effect on the clarity of the pickup particularly in the low end. And I think low end mud is what very often turns people off to humbuckers.

[NightWinder]

I second that as well, and also understand that not all grades are the same. Ie: American Minerals/ China....etc

[Spence]

Spence,

It sounds as if you have some pent-up anger issues.

That would be no fun and a lot of work on your part to cut up the machine. Instead, I'll buy you a Larry DiMarzio punching bag doll that you can use to release your hostilities.

What gave it away? The Wango Tango thing?

[Possum]

mo.....

No one jumped on that Leesona because of shipping, it sold for $500, shipping will probably be another $500, still a good deal. I'm sure that "magic wire" guy probably bought it and we'll never hear the end of it :-)
You guys ought to read the Tim Shaw interviews, Gibson hired him to recreate the PAFs in the 80s, he has some intersting things to say.

Yes short magnets make things brighter, make them too short and you get this freaking weird out of phase blow back phenomena where reverse phase signals get blown back into the other coil and vice versa, sounds horrible. There WAS some strangeness with some of the PAF magnets, read the Shaw thing, he said they used A5 and A2, never found anything else. But found some A5 cast without being in a magnetic field like they're supposed to be, sounds kinda like A2 he said. He also said the magnet wire had slightly thicker insulation, buy a Shaw pickup and measure it for yourself, do the work. DAMN RIGHT the steel parts hold most of the tone, buy a '57 Classic and rewind it, it ain't gonna sound like your StewMac kit shit, its all in the steel, do your own work. Bottom line is you have to make your own parts and know what to use, and no one is going to tell you, do your own work :-) The other half is finding those interviews and study them like a detective, over and over and over, read the patent. The third half is LISTEN to every single recording made with good sounding PAFs and listen til your ears drop off, Peter Green, Duane AllMan, Beano, Zeppelin, Bloomfield. No matter what you do you're still going to come up with something that sounds like you, it will have your own tone signature. The other thing is that guitar players in general don't get excited about a true recreation of a good PAF, most of them don't care and don't know much about it, thats why you see so much misinformation on the web, most of its wrong.....

[JGundry]

Dave I bought it! No joke. It was a good deal assuming it is not totally trashed which I don't think it is. Shipping was $350.00. But if something does break I'm sure a machine shop could make a replacement easy enough. It is actually better than the original Leesona 102 in that the gear box that comes before the traverse cam/gear box has been retrofitted with a variable speed clutch. So you can adjust the traverse speed without swapping gears but still get the funky mechanical thing that the cam gear box added. Don't worry, you'll never hear the end of it.

[R.G.]

...buy a Shaw pickup and measure it for yourself, do the work. DAMN RIGHT the steel parts hold most of the tone, buy a '57 Classic and rewind it, it ain't gonna sound like your StewMac kit shit, its all in the steel, do your own work. Bottom line is you have to make your own parts and know what to use, and no one is going to tell you, do your own work :-)

Ooops, sorry - I think I struck a nerve there. If you don't want to talk about it, that's OK. Sit down, that's it, relax...

So what happened in the past to make that a touchy subject?

[Satamax]

By the way guys, in French slang, Paf, means cock of knob

[NightWinder]

You Know I've said this all along.....Check the 'Old" forum archives. Material plays a major roll in tone. Many Conversations with Possum, calculations, Notes, etc. Possum and I, have both had great personal conversations about the issues of material, TPL, Magnets and the afore mentioned. Not a Nerve you struck, But a $1,000+ price tag to unwind a True Paf For Research.....You can't honestly expect to give some findings away for free for the sake of Ego? (Oh, this guy is the real deal) type of atmosphere?
There are very small calculated things that make a Paf a Paf. I suppose Myself, Possum, Gundry, Spence, Lollar(sorry I forgot You) could get in one room and compare notes and build the "uber PAF" . To do this, It would take 4 kegs, 10 fifths and at least an Ounce of hydro to get things rolling......Whether or not shit would get done is a different story...........
I'd imagine this: Myself? I'd throw Ladyfingers @ Possum(make his heart skip a few beats, but still looking in outerspace). I'd think Possum would smack Gundry across the face and scream "we won the war bitch" while his tent went up in flames, Spence would sink Lollars boat ride home, and Lollar would blow up the doll, Not the boat....
We all have are interpentations......Good times

[Possum]

"da work"....

Well, I've put a couple thousand dollars into PAF research and having my own parts made etc. I respect the hobbyists here but my intent is still to make a living at this into my retirement years which are coming up fast with no savings, so with that in mind don't expect the guys who put food on their table with very expensive hard fought knowledge to just casually tell how to make an authentic sounding PAF repro. There are alot of clues in the archives, also alot of wrong information there too. All I will tell you is if you really are burning up inside to make something authentic then do the same work I did and you'll get there. Took me five years from the start and there's still a few missing clues. Stew Mac told me they were going to make authentic PAF parts available this year but its not going to happen, too expensive and they told me they can't find anyone to make the right stuff, which means they couldn't find a cheap way to do it. Thats good news to me :-)

[R.G.]

Well, I've put a couple thousand dollars into PAF research and having my own parts made etc. I respect the hobbyists here but my intent is still to make a living at this into my retirement years which are coming up fast with no savings, so with that in mind don't expect the guys who put food on their table with very expensive hard fought knowledge to just casually tell how to make an authentic sounding PAF repro. There are alot of clues in the archives, also alot of wrong information there too. All I will tell you is if you really are burning up inside to make something authentic then do the same work I did and you'll get there. Took me five years from the start and there's still a few missing clues. Stew Mac told me they were going to make authentic PAF parts available this year but its not going to happen, too expensive and they told me they can't find anyone to make the right stuff, which means they couldn't find a cheap way to do it. Thats good news to me :-)

OK, I got you. You worked hard, found out some ingredients to the secret sauce about how to make a PAF, and you figure it's worth a lot of money to you so you're not going to tell anyone.

That's fine with me. What you're missing about me is that it would be very difficult for me to care less what the recipe for an exact-repro PAF is. At the lowest trivial level, I'm a single coil guy to start with. More important to you is the money, I guess. I don't have any interest in making pickups to sell in competition with you. Your money is safe from me.

What lights my candle is knowing what affects what.

If, for instance, you have to make the steel pieces out of 12L18 steel to duplicate a PAF and post-bending anneal them at 1350F for an hour, keep it to yourself. What intrigues me is knowing for instance that the change in permeability as the steel parts change from 1004 to 1024 causes the M-field to get more or less focused, and that changes the aperture on the string.

I can see what happened. I unwittingly talked about building an uber-PAF and that scared you into thinking your retirement had to be protected, as you've said. You would frankly rather that no one but you knew.

For that I apologize. I didn't mean to threaten you.

[Spence]

OK, I got you. You worked hard, found out some ingredients to the secret sauce about how to make a PAF, and you figure it's worth a lot of money to you so you're not going to tell anyone.

That's fine with me. What you're missing about me is that it would be very difficult for me to care less what the recipe for an exact-repro PAF is. At the lowest trivial level, I'm a single coil guy to start with. More important to you is the money, I guess. I don't have any interest in making pickups to sell in competition with you. Your money is safe from me.

What lights my candle is knowing what affects what.

If, for instance, you have to make the steel pieces out of 12L18 steel to duplicate a PAF and post-bending anneal them at 1350F for an hour, keep it to yourself. What intrigues me is knowing for instance that the change in permeability as the steel parts change from 1004 to 1024 causes the M-field to get more or less focused, and that changes the aperture on the string.

I can see what happened. I unwittingly talked about building an uber-PAF and that scared you into thinking your retirement had to be protected, as you've said. You would frankly rather that no one but you knew.

For that I apologize. I didn't mean to threaten you.

Well, I know how much effort Possum's put into his research into PAFs and while I may not agree with all his findings, I certainly don't think that he should have to tell you everything. It's got nothing to do with protecting his income into retirement. Just because you're on this forum doesn't give you a free pass to other's hard-won information.
On a more trivial level, no one's worried about competition from you anyway.

[NightWinder]

Some great posts though, Good thoughts....First kleenex is on me RG : )

[Possum]

sheesh....

Wow, did you ever take that the wrong way. Its not about money, its about the work I did and guys like Spence, Gundry and NiteWinder who have done their own exhaustive research work also, we do share alot of information on the forum, but ya know most of it goes unoticed and unused.

I have to admit I do find it annoying when someone asks a question that would better be asked by doing their own experiments and work THEN asking about it on the forum, then you got something to build on, and thats the kind of person I have respect for. If you're just asking questions to avoid doing any serious work then you don't really learn anything. You can't learn to be a mountain climber by taking the bus to the top of the hill :-) If that annoys some so be it....I was a single coil guy too until I started working with humbuckers and the ones I make now are very single coil sounding which is what attracted me to PAFs in the first place, now I mostly play buckers, I wouldn't have believe that a couple years ago :-)

All the stuff that makes a decent sounding PAF replica has been discussed here on the forum, dig through the archives, its all there, you have to piece it together, you have to spend the money to get pole screws that weren't made in Asia, you have to make your own parts, thats the bottom line. Dig out your checkbook and start flushing money down the toilet because thats what it takes too.