Routing Forbon

[jonson]

Sorry guys the only way I can do this is to post pics on replys as i'm told there is too many. thanks for looking and hope this gives you some ideas.

[jonson]

No won't let me do that either so I'm stumped so if on reading anyone is interested send me a private with email and I will send that way.
Jonson

[R.G.]

Yes, you have been a help. What I THINK you're saying is that one should not use a straight-sided router cutter. One should instead use a down-cutting spiral cutter, holds the blanks against the jig better.

What's not clear is the mechanism for making the down-cutter follow the jig on the blanks.

Did you use a separate pin for the jig to follow, or a bearing of some sort on the cutter? Or another means?

[jonson]

RG. Send me your e-mail address on a private and I will send you the rest of the pics of the whole system with the pin and jigs.then will explain but you will see how it works

[David Schwab]

Yes, you have been a help. What I THINK you're saying is that one should not use a straight-sided router cutter. One should instead use a down-cutting spiral cutter, holds the blanks against the jig better.

Hey, I said that in the other thread!

It all depends on whether the router is on top or the bottom. I haven't yet read his doc though so I don't know what you are referring to. If the router in under the table you want an up-cutting spiral bit to hold the work against the table. It's not easy to find spiral pattern bits though, but they do make them. I use a big 3/4" one for bodies.

But really, pick up a couple of books on routers and wood-working. They cover pattern routing, which is all this is.

I use pattern routing of some kind for almost every step in guitar construction. it's a great way to get repeatability.

[jonson]

Yes David it is pattern routing but you should read the doc. I would'nt attempt to do those nice new flatfork jobs you are doing now with the router underneath but over the top no pribs whatsoever. Anybody can do it in their own workshop saves a lot of time.

[David Schwab]

Yes David it is pattern routing but you should read the doc. I would'nt attempt to do those nice new flatfork jobs you are doing now with the router underneath but over the top no pribs whatsoever. Anybody can do it in their own workshop saves a lot of time.

The only time I ever have the router underneath is for routing things like pickguard outlines from a pattern.

I did have a shaper in my old workshop though, but we used that for bodies and necks.

I suppose I could cut my flat work out with a router using a pattern... which was the way I was going to do it, using a pattern under the material. I was doing the slots on out milling machine. But I was using phenolic, and not forbon.

[jonson]

I asume David that you are holding the router with both hands which I don't the router is fixed and the patterns are not attached to the workpiece. This is common industry practice and not a way of doing it in a router handbook. Too many restrictions that way. You could rout your slots in a drill press anyway by using a crossvice they are cheap enough with a very small cutter but once you set your router to do this type of machining then possibilities for other things do open up. Gladly send you the pics then you can really make a comment.
jonson.

[David Schwab]

I asume David that you are holding the router with both hands

I sure hope I am!

which I don't the router is fixed and the patterns are not attached to the workpiece.

Yes, I under stand how to use a pin router.

This is common industry practice and not a way of doing it in a router handbook.

Which industry? My partner is an industrial designer/model maker/pattern maker and was previously a cabinet maker. He also worked with Ned Steinberger making the prototypes for the NS Double bass, including the two that Tony Levin had. (they were destroyed in a fire). John knows his stuff.

I learned formal woodworking before getting into lutherie. The difference between the two of us is I like using routers and power tools, and John likes to do things with hand tools. But we jig everything. We hardly make a cut without a pattern, and never without a drawing.

Too many restrictions that way.

Pin routers are nice... we had two at American Showster. But trying to use them for some tasks is a pain. You don't see too many luthiers using them because they aren't all that useful for many guitar making tasks. I made a small pin router 16 years ago for a couple of specific tasks, mostly involving shaping my headstocks. I prefer the overhead pin routers because you can see what you are doing.

We actually don't use flush cutters if we don't have to. We use collars on the router bases.

You could rout your slots in a drill press anyway by using a crossvice they are cheap enough with a very small cutter

Yeah, that's what I started out doing. But drill presses have too much runout for a nice even slot. The mill works better. We use the mill more than the drill press for drilling as well. We use stereolithography now for bobbins. We design everything on computers now... including instruments. Eventually we will take those files to a CNC setup.

but once you set your router to do this type of machining then possibilities for other things do open up. Gladly send you the pics then you can really make a comment.

Sure, send them. I was wondering why there were no picts in the document. I don't think you are going to show me anything I haven't seen though. I've been involved in this stuff for the past 30 years. I've used over head pin routers, pin routers with the pin overhead, shapers, router tables, duplicarvers, you name it! I love machines.

I'm always open for new jig ideas, but it's all been done before.

[jonson]

Well I suppose I aught to reply to that David and aught to apologise for trying to help guys do this themselves when I am standing in front of a master. My problem is that I have nothing to offer these guys pups and only 40 odd years of machining which could help them out to do things easier at home without spending too much money.I was a bit suprised as to you with formal training that you had'nt done the same thing so these guys hobbiests and pro's could make life easier but as you say a few books and yes it has all been done before.I was also suprised for you to say that the router has limitations which is not something I find as the only thing I hav'nt done on mine and that is cus its' easier on a bandsaw is cut a rear contour. It does everything else inc the backs of necks and radiusing fingerboards but thats just down to the jigs i've developed. Mind you in my small 5000 sq ft there is an awful lot of machinery doing a lot of other things as well.
My other problem is I am a trusting soul and do get told off for that as when someone tells me something I usually believe them. Untill that is they resort to telling me Porky pies. Then the whole lot goes right out the window and I do'nt bother to listen anymore. Quote..I learned formal woodworking before getting into lutherie ok good for you but on page 16 of this forum Question about cutting forbon where you are talking about shaping with a robosander
Quote..I would also go and look for some wood working books having to do with patterns and such. They are using full of good ideas. When I started building guitars I new very little about wood working, but I got books and videos, and even though I wasn't making chairs and stuff like that, I got a lot of good ideas for making the stuff I wanted to make. Now do you see my prob. If you can't remember over the course of eight months whether you had any formal training or not then why should I and I wo'nt say others believe andything else you have to say.
Guys if by this I have offended anybody else on this site then I am sorry but when you are trying to help guys move on down the line and it just gets poo pooed and stopped in it's tracks i'm afraid to say it gets right up my nose.

[David Schwab]

Now don't take that tone! I never said I was a master. I apologize if I sounded that way, that wasn't my intention. I am a damn good luthier though. I take pride in that. I don't know everything, but we keep learning every day.

As with anything there's more than one way to skin a cat. I gave a very simple method that's commonly used for making small parts with a router. It doesn't require a pin router, shaper, or even a router table. It might be good for some that need to try this and don't have the space or cash to get a new machine or even a router table. Certainly not the only or best way, but it's a valid method and it works.

I took a bit of offense at your notion of something being the "right way" or an industry standard, when every industry has different ways of doing things. Using a hand held router with templates is a pretty standard way of working in a lot of fields. Sometimes it's the most convenient way. Other times it's a kluge and even dangerous. We have enough routers where some are set for certain tasks, with special bases and stuff just for one task.

I thought your method was a good way of doing things, and I'm sure new to some people. Some people have ways they like to work. I like to shape my fingerboard taper with a router and template, and my partner doesn't. He uses a table saw and a jig. They both work, and we use what we are comfortable with.

So I didn't mean to imply that you don't have a good idea or that I couldn't learn something from it, but really, look at the tone of your comment... it's as if it's something revolutionary and superior over all other ways. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, and were being helpful, as I was also trying to be.

Personally I enjoy coming up with new ways to do things. That's the fun part.

[Dave Kerr]

So as to not crush TBoy's bandwidth, here are links to the rest of the photos jonson was kind enough to forward on to me:
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And this guy would like to share a word with you about shop safety:
theCraw.jpg

[David Schwab]

Nice work!

[jonson]

Very quickly to start off thanks Dave for posting the pics. It's not the bandwidth it's this site that will not let me do things. Have to relog on about 5 times in every half even though iv'e allready done so and will not let me post or put pics on now and then. Last night it would'nt even let me quote so had to manually do it so I must be going through some funny servers as this does not happen on other sites. (Think some hacker out there is trying to steal me online knitting patterns).
David I am sorry if I offended you and I will try not to do so again. Typical Brit, spur of the moment call I explode. Been working to hard and need a break so gonna fly off for three weeks of fishing, Kiteing and a few gallons of Turkish Raki down me neck. Still nigh on 40deg out there so now were cooking.
Still stick to the industry standard bit though but I mean the way of Jigging for this kind of router so it gets your hands well away from the business end of the cutters. Not the industry standard for making bits and pieces there is loads of other ways I know.(bet there is some little guys out in India sitting in the street holding forbon by their feet and picking bits out with their toenails.
So sorry to one and all I get like that I think it's the change of life, been going on ever since I went through the menopause.

[David Schwab]

I apologize as well... It's easy to take things the wrong way, and sometimes we aren't in the best of moods when reading the posts!

Your DIY pin router looks very cool. The only thing I might do differently is make the pattern holder out of something I could see through. That's my one objection to pin routers.

But you have some great ideas there. I haven't had a pin router since the one I made, which I didn't use for long, so I'm thinking of ways to incorporate one now...