Pickup (single coil) placement determination

[mozz]

Ok guys, how do you decide which pickup goes where after you wind a set? Sort by resistance, inductance, resonant frequency, capacitance? 7700N 7800M 7900B? Intuition tells higher inductance higher output so that would mean bridge gets the highest.

On the other hand if i wound 3 all the same turns with approx. all the same resistance and inductance, and resonate freq. was 8000,9000 and 10,000hz, would you put 8000hz in the bridge?

[mozz]

I'm logging everything because i can. I do have a test mule guitar but it has 1 slot.

[mozz]

Still experimenting with different turns count. Resistance and henrys are "almost" related. I can wind the same turns,resistance stays the same but I can change capacitance and a little inductance by tpl or scatter fast or slow. Also did the wind ends then fill in the middle to see how that changes things.

I have seen how A3 give higher inductance than A5. So far my bobbin height is 7/16th (about 11mm) and is going to stay there for now as i cut porcelain spacers to that height. Have lots of military goodies from the 50's as my dad used to strip military surplus for the caps and resistors. Pictures of porcelain turret boards and veeder roots counters. Pounds of resistors and germanium stuff.

Mule guitar has a 5 position load pot values from 100k to 1meg. These seem to sound best around 330k. It's a plywood Harmony from 1985. No tone pot on mule guitar. Signal generator has 470pf added plus scope probe pf to simulate guitar cable. Lisojous pattern on the scope tells me the resonate freq. Subtract the capacitance in the formula moves up resonant to pickup alone,usually 8000-10000hz, have seen it as low as 7900hz and high as 11000,capacitance varies from 80pf fast scatter to 180pf high tpl wind.

Using a Thomas winder now from eBAy buts that's another story by itself.

[big_teee]

Hopefully you can be better served in the main area.
T

[mozz]

7700Neck, 7800Middle, 7900Bridge. That's just a turns count example. Not all higher winding's have higher inductance. I have seen a few big sellers who's resistance wasn't always in order, example, 6.0k neck 5.8k middle 6.2 k bridge. Maybe these are sold with increasing inductance, such as 2.0h neck, 2.1h middle, 2.2h bridge. Just wondering. Higher inductance higher output.

I think i'm going with inductance first, then resonate freq to determine position. Unless i can be told why "not " to go that way.


As for the rwrp thing, i have seen people just swapping the wires, they weren't actually wound cw, zapping the magnets reverse is easy.

Oh, my thread has been moved. But i'm a beginner!

[copperheadroads]

That Mule has no Bridge pickup . Break out the router ......Are you actually winding pickups & NOT know why the pickup towards the bridge possibly can be hotter ?

[copperheadroads]

Forget about inductance & use resistance sparingly if you are doing OLD style pickups ...Fender & Gibson . Turn counts are what matters . the old provide site is the way to go ...

[mozz]

That Mule has no Bridge pickup . Break out the router ......Are you actually winding pickups & NOT know why the pickup towards the bridge possibly can be hotter ?

???? The mule is to see if they work, that's it.

Still asking my original question. Wind count is how you determine which pickup goes where? What if i wind all 3 the same, such as was done in the past.
Still thinking inductance tells you which one has the highest output. If that is the same, i think resonate frequency would determine which pickup goes where. From factory pickups i have tested, seems the lower resonant frequency always goes to the bridge. What about "Q", highest q goes to bridge?

[rjb]

Wind count is how you determine which pickup goes where? What if i wind all 3 the same, such as was done in the past.

Well, if you really wound them "all the same", wouldn't they all have the same inductance?

Still thinking inductance tells you which one has the highest output. If that is the same, i think resonate frequency would determine which pickup goes where. From factory pickups i have tested, seems the lower resonant frequency always goes to the bridge.

Here's my take on it:

When installed in the guitar, cable capacitance will swamp the pickups' inter-winding capacitance.

So test the pickups loaded with 470pF, and use those resonant frequencies for comparison- not the self-resonance freqs.

"Theoretically", when thus loaded, the pickup with highest inductance and the pickup with lowest resonant frequency will be the same pickup. So use that one in the bridge position.

But that's just one person's take on it.

What about "Q", highest q goes to bridge?

Too complicated for my little brain. High Q = "taller" narrower peak possible at resonant frequency. But loading the pickup with volume & tone controls lowers Q. I don't even own a Strat- bridge pickup has no tone control, right? If the bridge pickup is too "peaky", you could lower its Q by bridging it with a resistor- but you can't go the other way around. (Actually, you could raise Q by bridging with an inductor, but that would be kinda ridiculous).

[mozz]

Thanks for all the replys.

"Well, if you really wound them "all the same", wouldn't they all have the same inductance?"

I was speaking turns count (all the same). You get variances in the capacitance and inductance when they are all wound the same turns count. I can measure it. Can i hear it, i doubt it. Resonant freq is different between any 3 i wind.

"When installed in the guitar, cable capacitance will swamp the pickups' inter-winding capacitance."

Yes but, that's what i have my test setup for, it's a 470pf plus scope probe 58pf. From that i derive a number, then i subtract my test setup pf and then derive the pickup capacitance.

2 examples, same turns count (7900),6.0k each, and first was 82 pf, fast scatter, next was slow traverse nice and uniform, 126pf. Henries were within 10 percent, not a lot but it does matter, resonant for one was 10,900hz, other calculated to 8600hz.

Those same 2 examples on the test set are 4025hz and 3780hz, that is both loaded with the test set 528pf. So loaded down with the output cable, (anywhere from 30-60pf/foot) there is less a difference but still over 200hz where they peak. So i have concluded, if you use high quality cables and have 10-15ft you will hear more a difference between pickups than if you ran a 20 ft cable.

Lowest resonant pickup should go in the bridge, no matter what the turns or resistance. You can adjust pickup output by height.

I may be over thinking it but hey, i have the test equipment. I have tested fender custom shop pickups and others and should be able to duplicate them without knowing turns count.

[big_teee]

Did you come here to learn how we all make pickups?
Or just to argue and discuss Inductance?

This is IME the accepted concept for making strat single coils.
1. wind pickups per position, neck, middle, bridge.
2.wind each pickup with a turns count target.
3.when done then check DCR, and Inductance to see if they are in limits.
4.check for shorted magnets.

No one here that I know of just winds a bunch of pickups then picks which one goes where.
You can do that, but what's the point?
I for one put a lot more turns on the bridge pickup.
I put a lot less on the neck, and in between on the middle, and I do RWRP for the middle pickup.
Please don't come here just wanting us to tell you what you want to here!
If your mind is already set and made up, and you know how you are going to do things?
Then there is no reason to come here and ask questions!

T

[mozz]

Wooohoo, wait a minute. I posted this to the beginners section, you moved it. All i did was ask a lot of questions, a beginner i am.

Then, you answered a lot of my questions, then you deleted all your answers. Why? You have done that before in other threads. I makes it look like i am talking to myself.

"Did you come on here to learn how we all make pickups?
Or just to argue and discuss Inductance?"

I'm not arguing, i'm asking. There is a difference. You tell me to go by turns count. I'm exploring other options, the reason" so i'm not winding like everybody else".

"No one here that I know of just winds a bunch of pickups then picks which one goes where."

Tell me where i said that! I didn't. Some places, companies, make product, then sort them out. How do you think resistors often got labeled. Transistors, sorted for gain and other characteristics, then labeled.

FYI, i bought my pickup winding equipment here, from a member. Along with that, i got 20 pickups, wound, unlabeled, unmarked, i'm sorting them, making sets. I am also making sets of 3 doing some sets different counts, some sets the same counts, vintage sets were often wound all the same.

"Please don't come here just wanting us to tell you what you want to here!
If your mind is already set, and you know how you are going to do things?
Then there is no reason to come here and ask questions!
"
This i don't understand at all.
I'm not one to pick apart someones posts, but like i said, you answered a lot of my questions then deleted all the posts you made!

To the other posters in this thread, thanks for your answers.

Like i said, not arguing. It's a quest for knowledge. Hence, i posted to the beginners forum.
A lot of my questions in google come to music-electronics forum. There are some people here who can explain stuff that is way over my head and yet make it understandable. I'm the type of person, if who is told "go by turns count and don't question it" i specifically wont go by turns count. How are gonna learn anything?

I'd rather see numbers, whats the window in capacitance variation? Is this a beginners question? If nobody knows, i will find out. In the long run, if capacitance means nothing to the final sound i consider it a lesson learned. Should i sell tubing or springs with my pickups? Can i make a website with outrageous marketing claims?

Common sense would dictate the bridge pickup would need higher output because of the strings have less movement. Hence, height adjustments and/or higher output pickup. If i put a lower resonate frequency pickup there, can i throw out turns count (resistance)out the window?

[big_teee]

OK, you already have pickups wound that you are sorting?
I don't think you ever said that. Now that makes more sense.
In my deleted posts, it was like I was talking to a wall with no acknowledgement.
So I deleted and moved you here.
You may want to divulge more, say thanks more, and argue less.
T

[ric]

Hi mozz,
I don't know why you'd be concerned with anything but dc resistance. Least at neck to brighten, most at bridge to darken, middle if there is one, reverse polarity for parallel humbucking. As mentioned, your test guitar looks to have more neck/ middle. Maybe rout it a little further south n try the different positions and go with what you like best.
There are likely to be all kinds of answers/ responses. There's often something to learn from anybody, but nobody is the boss.

[rjb]

2 examples, same turns count (7900),6.0k each, and first was 82 pf, fast scatter, next was slow traverse nice and uniform, 126pf. Henries were within 10 percent, not a lot but it does matter, resonant for one was 10,900hz, other calculated to 8600hz.

Those same 2 examples on the test set are 4025hz and 3780hz, that is both loaded with the test set 528pf. So loaded down with the output cable, (anywhere from 30-60pf/foot) there is less a difference but still over 200hz where they peak.

So, your inductances were within 10%, and your loaded resonant frequencies were within +/- 3% of 3902 Hz.
Or you could say that 4025 Hz is 6.5% higher than 3780 Hz.

Let's put that in perspective. Look at the tempered scale. Each semitone is the twelfth root of two above the previous note (hunh?).*
OK, example: The note one half-step above 1000 Hz is 1000 Hz x 1.05946309436 = 1059.5 Hz.
Let's round that to 1060 Hz and call it about 6% higher than 1000 Hz.
The difference in resonant frequencies of your pickups is barely over a half step in the chromatic scale.

So i have concluded, if you use high quality cables and have 10-15ft you will hear more a difference between pickups than if you ran a 20 ft cable.

Yup. With longer cables, you will have even less than the already insignificant difference.

Lowest resonant pickup should go in the bridge, no matter what the turns or resistance. You can adjust pickup output by height.

Looks like you've made your own conclusion.

I may be over thinking it but hey, i have the test equipment. I have tested fender custom shop pickups and others and should be able to duplicate them without knowing turns count.

To each his own. If you can afford the custom shop pickups, what's the point in duplicating them?

IMHO- By sorting pickups by their loaded resonant frequencies, you are really doing the same thing as the "traditionalists"- albeit in a more subtle manner. The difference is, you are concerning yourself with slight parameter differences that have barely perceptible effect. If you wind a bridge pickup with a lot more turns, then you know it's going to have higher inductance, higher Q, and lower loaded resonant frequency. Because physics says so.

*Sorry for the incoherence. I have an MSG headache.