Antigua did it again

[rjb]

If you really have interest in understanding how pickups work

I do have some interest- more than some others, but not as much as you and Joe.
I like to know how things work, but not necessarily to the minutest detail.
Setting priorities, as a music-playing person (note I didn't say "musician"), I see a guitar as a tool, and a pickup as just part of that tool.
For me, maybe it's enough to understand that a magnetic pickup, by it's nature, can not produce a signal proportional to the string's displacement (referring to that "proportional to the rate of change" business).
Given the choice between playing guitar and relearning div, grad, curl and all that jazz, I would choose the former.

take a look at the article I am referring to (www.physics.princeton.edu/~mcdonald/examples/guitar.pdf).

Not to take undue credit, but I introduced you to that article.
http://music-electronics-forum.com/t26611/

The quoted statement indicates that the paper intends to do what Joe says you cannot, and then it proceeds to do it.

Is that what Joe said? I thought he said something like "use what works".

[Mike Sulzer]

I do have some interest- more than some others, but not as much as you and Joe.
I like to know how things work, but not necessarily to the minutest detail.
Setting priorities, as a music-playing person (note I didn't say "musician"), I see a guitar as a tool, and a pickup as just part of that tool.
For me, maybe it's enough to understand that a magnetic pickup, by it's nature, can not produce a signal proportional to the string's displacement (referring to that "proportional to the rate of change" business).
Given the choice between playing guitar and relearning div, grad, curl and all that jazz, I would choose the former.



Not to take undue credit, but I introduced you to that article.
http://music-electronics-forum.com/t26611/



Is that what Joe said? I thought he said something like "use what works".

Thanks of the introduction, but this is what Joe wrote:

"It does "hide the underlying physics" because this it is essential to do so, because solving Maxwell's Equations in a practical device by hand is intractable, and it can be intractable with a computer as well."

Yes solving them is exactly what is done (with relevant approximations) in that article

[rjb]

Thanks of the introduction, but this is what Joe wrote:

"It does "hide the underlying physics" because this it is essential to do so, because solving Maxwell's Equations in a practical device by hand is intractable, and it can be intractable with a computer as well."

Yes solving them is exactly what is done (with relevant approximations) in that article

OK, you win.
It can be done.
Maybe not by the average guy who has no more than a vague notion that "sound comes out of the pickup when the metal string disturbs the magnetic field".
But it can be done.

Speaking of Maxwell, I think it's time to chill now.

[rjb]

Getting back to the original agenda...

.. which is either bad-mouthing Antigua or chastising LtKojak for unduly attacking Antigua....

I won't win any brownie points for this- but I think Antigua's demonstrations of pickup magnetic fields, using magnet film, are kinda neat.
Certainly more straight-forward than struggling with FEMM- and it's "real", not a simulation.
Some may niggle with his conclusions (how can he be right when he doesn't wind pickups), but I think I may have learned something.

Pickups and magnet film | Fender Stratocaster Guitar Forum

[LtKojak]

I think I may have learned something

And that should be the following:
"Not everything that can be measured counts and not everything that counts can be measured"

Those neat graphic representations are resulting values of measurement made by hobbyists with not calibrated, affordable gear, which also the driver has been manipulated to match existing values of unverified sources or some other published sources having similar equipment.

But let's say for the sake of argument that the data is accurate. What do you do with it? How do you interpret it? Can it be a consensus about the interpretation of such data? Which brings me again to the fashion model analogy: if all corporal measurements of Adriana Lima and Candice Swanepoel are the same, in the p'up world you conclude the the 57/62 and the Texas Special are the same p'up because they measure the same. So, using the same judgement, then Adriana Lima and Candice Swanepoel are indeed the same person?

As you can see, there must be a flaw somewhere along the line, isn't it?

[rjb]

Those neat graphic representations....

But let's say for the sake of argument that the data is accurate....

WTF are you talking about? You obviously haven't checked the link- or, it appears, even read my post.
The page I linked to shows photos of the magnetic fields around pickups and strings as displayed with magnetic film.
There are no "neat graphic representations" or numerical data to speak of.

in the p'up world you conclude the the 57/62 and the Texas Special are the same p'up because they measure the same.

That's not what he said. He said manufacturing tolerances are so loose that, out of a fairly small sample pool of each, he found a Fat 50 and a Texas Special with nearly identical electrical specifications. And you know what? I bet if you did a blind listening test between those two pickups, you would find that they sound almost identical.

"Not everything that can be measured counts and not everything that counts can be measured"

Yes, I know you are fond of that quote.
To which I might add:
"To the boy with a hammer, the whole world is a nail."
You are also fond of asking if someone has ever wound a pickup.
I ask if you have ever used an oscilloscope.

Bye now,
- Mr. Tired & Cranky Head

[Joe Gwinn]

Earlier you had said "As for the business about strings distorting the magnetic field, that is a very common way to describe the operation of variable-reluctance pickups in industry", I don't believe people who use the former language are referring to the latter, rather they are wholly misunderstanding what is happening, and so the objective is not to calculate anything in this context, but to explain it in a way that is true to the underlying physics, and then worry about the abstractions such as magnetic reluctance only after that understanding has been achieved.

It is as always - not everybody who uses a method fully understands it. But they get their job done nonetheless.

Case in point: How many successful pickup makers fully understand the physics? More common is a really good set of ears, and a lot of experimentation.

[LtKojak]

WTF are you talking about? You obviously haven't checked the link- or, it appears, even read my post.

Actually, I quoted you but what I wrote was meant to be rhetorical; not addressing you personally or anything you actually wrote.

So, you're right! Sorry! I've screwed up. My bad!

So folks, never write anything without having enough caffeine kicked-in! That's what happens!

But to answer your question anyway, having earned a diploma in electronics and work at an old-fashion electronic repair shop for a couple of seasons in my younger years, even tough I haven't used one for a while now, I actually do know how to use an oscilloscope.

[ScottA]

And that should be the following:
"Not everything that can be measured counts and not everything that counts can be measured"

Those neat graphic representations are resulting values of measurement made by hobbyists with not calibrated, affordable gear, which also the driver has been manipulated to match existing values of unverified sources or some other published sources having similar equipment.

But let's say for the sake of argument that the data is accurate. What do you do with it? How do you interpret it? Can it be a consensus about the interpretation of such data? Which brings me again to the fashion model analogy: if all corporal measurements of Adriana Lima and Candice Swanepoel are the same, in the p'up world you conclude the the 57/62 and the Texas Special are the same p'up because they measure the same. So, using the same judgement, then Adriana Lima and Candice Swanepoel are indeed the same person?

As you can see, there must be a flaw somewhere along the line, isn't it?

Well, they would feel the same on a dark stage...

Measurements tell you quite a bit about what's going on, really I think they tell you most of what's going on, but not everything - that's true. Sometimes though, it's that last little bit that doesn't show up in the frequency response measurements, but that you know is there because of design changes you made or whatever, that makes the difference. I've had that experience recently. But I would also say that even in that case, it's the measurements that got me 99% there, and even further there's probably still something else you can tie the difference to that is measurable. In my case there was.

I would say this though, if you had two pickups that measured the same and used the same materials of construction and basic design, you would be hard pressed to tell a difference between them in practice.

Meanwhile, Antigua's reign of terror continues. While I applaud his technical curiosity, and I appreciate that he is raising the visibility of some of these things conceptually, he continues to demonstrate a somewhat naive and uninformed disdain for pretty much anyone else who has ever built or tried to sell a pickup.

He would certainly be better served if he delved into the history a bit more and was perhaps a bit more deferential.

But I guess then it wouldn't be the internet, would it?

[LtKojak]

Measurements tell you quite a bit about what's going on, really I think they tell you most of what's going on, but not everything - that's true.

I've never said the opposite, Scott.

Sometimes though, it's that last little bit that doesn't show up in the frequency response measurements, but that you know is there because of design changes you made or whatever, that makes the difference. I've had that experience recently.

Yeah, you're a p'up maker and an inventor. For you, every single bit of data has a meaning and serve a purpose, and that degree at MIT may attest that you may have an idea of what you're talking about.

But I would also say that even in that case, it's the measurements that got me 99% there, and even further there's probably still something else you can tie the difference to that is measurable. In my case there was.

That's because you know how to interpret the data, so you don't go out spewing preposterous statements about something you don't have any grasp on.

I would say this though, if you had two pickups that measured the same and used the same materials of construction and basic design, you would be hard pressed to tell a difference between them in practice.

Our "Prince" concluded that two p'ups were the same, based on some parameters only, when he even presented obvious physical differences, like wound with different type of wire and the coils presented different coil geometry and size, and shamed everybody else that contradicted him and his numbers.

Meanwhile, Antigua's reign of terror continues.

You got that right!

While I applaud his technical curiosity, and I appreciate that he is raising the visibility of some of these things conceptually

IF he only had the concepts right...

he continues to demonstrate uninformed disdain for pretty much anyone else who has ever built or tried to sell a pickup.

Dunning-Kruger Syndrome at its purest form.

He would certainly be better served if he delved into the history a bit more and was perhaps a bit more deferential.

He doesn't want to learn, he just wants the attention of telling everybody how little they know compared to him, and everything that's not included in his charts just doesn't exist.

But I guess then it wouldn't be the internet, would it?

Yeah, tell me about it!

[big_teee]

What a silly Thread.
If the controversy is over at another forum, why not leave it over there?
This thread keeps dragging it back over here!
IMO this thread is trolling. It was designed to fire up this group.
T

[J M Fahey]

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.

[Beef Coon]

So... septic tank?

[Leo_Gnardo]

Meanwhile, Antigua's reign of terror continues.

You got that right!

Over there, not so much over here. Much the same as SGM. Yes it's a shame that dodgy "science" and half baked info get spread around but, as they say, that's the interwebs.

There's no point in being Antiguanized by someone who has elected to leave.

One good thing, the technical discussions in this thread, I've found enlightening. I'll admit, I never wound a pickup, but thru those who have plus those who have a grip on the physics/math modeling, I've found a deeper understanding, and I thank you for that.

[DrStrangelove]

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