A 2012 color trademark court desicion. Pay attention.

[rjb]

Either or. It's hard to take the cost argument seriously when premium humbuckers cost in excess of $100. I'm sure something can be figured out.

There's always the "margarine" solution:
Ship white bobbins along with a small piece of fine sandpaper and a vial of a proprietary mix of yellow and tan RIT dyes.

OK, this time I'm really done. I think.
-rb

[rjb]

Plato's (as well as Gibson's) ideal form for a hum bucker pickup has a cover. So as far as fashion goes, this discussion bears some resemblance to a Victoria's Secret fashion show, where underwear is the outerwear.

Help. Mike, that comment is over my head.

Plato's theory of Forms or theory of Ideas argues that non-physical (but substantial) forms (or ideas) represent the most accurate reality.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_Forms

What's Plato's ideal form (or Plato's Closet, for that matter) have to do with Victoria's Secret?

-rb

[WolfeMacleod]

OK, I'm done with the needling, and I apologize for the agita.
But I really do encourage you to give the large bold text in post #32 some thought.

Peace,
-rb

I think you're referring to marking the top with your maker's name.. IE: "Seymour Duncan" like they do? Apparently, that's a no-go as well, according to the "D" You'd think that'd be plenty.

Hello,
I really don't see why this is such a problem.

Here's why it's a problem.
Guitar are generally seen as works of art. Some could be considered masterpieces. Many people are forced to compromise on either the aasthetics or the tone due to this.
Many Guitar builders and customers alike want double-cream to complete the aesthetic look of the guitar. However, many people don't want to be forced to use Dimarzio pickups just to complete the look they're going after.

While I can't speak for others, my requests for double-cream average around 4-6 every week. That's a fairly hefty percentage for a small builder.
Let's assume that percentage continues for a year. At 52 weeks, let's suppose 10 cream pickups each week over a year = 520 pickups. At an average of $130 each, that's another $67,600 in gross sales, which is HUGE for a small maker.

That $67,000 in additional income can mean hiring a new employee, affording custom tooling, magazine advertisements, or maybe two full year's mortgage payment.
Even if a builder only gets requests for two cream pickups per week for a total of 104 over a year, that's still an additional $13,520 in income that could be added. That's a Part time employee! Or a display at the NAMM show!


In my best year ever of sales, 2007, we had $107,000 in gross sales. During that year (as well an in 2006), more than 50% of the inquiries I had were for double-cream. I estimate the total sales to be about 823 pickups for that year. If we assume another 50% of sales on top of that, that would give us another 400+ pickups. Or another $52,000 in sales that we could have had. Or another $100,000+ if we consider 2006 into that as well.

Now do you see why it's such a problem? Can you see the significant disadvantage that this puts a small maker at?

If you've read the case studies I've cited above, you'll know that "significant disadvantage" is requently mentioned.

[the great waldo]

I talked with a lady who worked at a patent office here in Austria and mentioned the double cream issue. She mentioned that it wouldn't be possible to block other makers making d cream pups as they wouldn't grant a patent on a colour, this is Europe wide the same.

Cheers
Andrew

[big_teee]

I talked with a lady who worked at a patent office here in Austria and mentioned the double cream issue. She mentioned that it wouldn't be possible to block other makers making d cream pups as they wouldn't grant a patent on a colour, this is Europe wide the same.

Cheers
Andrew

It's not a patent, it is a trademark.
This explains it pretty well.
Double Cream not allowed anymore?

[mr fab]

I have not looked at the trademark, but does it define the cream colour? or is it loosely worded so that anything from off-white to amber may be considered cream?

[dchang0]

My hostility (irritation, really) comes from those who don't or don't want to understand how aesthetics can be of any importance... the "function" of aesthetics.

I understand the function of aesthetics, even the neuromarketing aspects and the psychological influence of color (a study found that by painting toolboxes light green, they "felt lighter" to the workers who used them than other colors).

Even then, I think Dimarzio is being a butt about the cream color and will boycott them for it. I understand that companies and corporations have every right to protect their interests, and I also understand that consumers have every right to protect their interests and that corporate interests and consumer interests are often (but not always) at odds. In this case I side with the consumer--guitarists who may want a set of non-Dimarzio pickups in cream (not me).

Why do I think Dimarzio is being a butt? Well, it's because they don't make pickups in ONLY their trademarked cream color. They can make pickups in any color that any other pickup company can make (such as black), PLUS the trademarked cream color. The Tiffany blue jewelry box is much less of a butt-move because Tiffany only uses that one blue color for their boxes (with rare exceptions like red for Christmas). John Deere tractors are only ever green and yellow. But Dimarzio is effectively, in my opinion, trying to have their cake and eat it too.

[Mike Sulzer]

[QUOTE=WolfeMacleod;426702

While I can't speak for others, my requests for double-cream average around 4-6 every week. That's a fairly hefty percentage for a small builder.
[/QUOTE]

I think that demand is apparent rather than real; that is, since no one can sell it, those who are looking for it make a large number of requests to many builders. looking for someone who does. If the restriction goes, then I think the apparent demand drops, and the actual demand for any builder would not be so large since anyone could build it.

[rjb]

I think that demand is apparent rather than real;

I find it mind-boggling that 50% of the inquiries to a winder who makes Strat, Tele, and P90 style pickups, plus several flavors of screw/slug HBs (one of which ships by default with an aged cover) are for double-cream HBs.

Of all the tints, shades, and tones of all the hues in the spectrum, one color is trademarked for HBs with exposed bobbins- and every guitarist must have that color. If you see your guitar as a work of art, why defile it with pukey pinky beige pickups? Using Mike's "Victoria's Secret" analogy, it's as if women were clamoring for trademarked "Mrs. Potato Head's Skin Tone" brassieres. (Actually, I think MPHST pickups would better complement most guitar color schemes.)

[WolfeMacleod]

I find it mind-boggling that 50% of the inquiries to a winder who makes Strat, Tele, and P90 style pickups, plus several flavors of screw/slug HBs (one of which ships by default with an aged cover) are for double-cream HBs.

Of all the tints, shades, and tones of all the hues in the spectrum, one color is trademarked for HBs with exposed bobbins- and every guitarist must have that color. If you see your guitar as a work of art, why defile it with pukey pinky beige pickups? Using Mike's "Victoria's Secret" analogy, it's as if women were clamoring for trademarked "Mrs. Potato Head's Skin Tone" brassieres. (Actually, I think MPHST pickups would better complement most guitar color schemes.)

The popularity comes and goes.
Despite also making strat and tele single coils, 99% of my work is humbuckers and P90s. I might do as little as a dozen single per year.

[Leo_Gnardo]

I find it mind-boggling that 50% of the inquiries to a winder who makes Strat, Tele, and P90 style pickups, plus several flavors of screw/slug HBs (one of which ships by default with an aged cover) are for double-cream HBs.

"Can you get me what I can't have?" It's human nature. That which is forbidden becomes so much more attractive. It explains a lot of behavior.

Now if those double-cream HB seekers/players would turn out some fantastic music with their special pickups, wouldn't that be terrific? I'm going to have another listen to Disreaeli Gears now, old fashioned Cream and nobody worried what color the pickups were, ah the good ol' days.

[JGravelin]

Hello everyone - hope you're all happy and well. Wolfe, thanks for reaching out to me. I'm in.

[eschertron]

Why do I think Dimarzio is being a butt? Well, it's because they don't make pickups in ONLY their trademarked cream color. They can make pickups in any color that any other pickup company can make (such as black), PLUS the trademarked cream color. The Tiffany blue jewelry box is much less of a butt-move because Tiffany only uses that one blue color for their boxes (with rare exceptions like red for Christmas). John Deere tractors are only ever green and yellow. But Dimarzio is effectively, in my opinion, trying to have their cake and eat it too.

Could it be argued that if Dmarz makes pickups in another color besides their "trademark" color, it indicates willful abandonment of their trademark?

[Richard]

I don't think it's the case with cream but if it was an unusual color like the orange Lamborghini uses I could see getting a trademark. Cream is not a distinctive color (or a color at all according to some art teachers).

[WolfeMacleod]

Could it be argued that if Dmarz makes pickups in another color besides their "trademark" color, it indicates willful abandonment of their trademark?

No, not unless they ceased anyuse completely.
The better argument would be that they (and we) make different colors for a reason, and that reason is because guitarists want to match colors to their guitars for a harmonious "whole"