416 stainless steel pole pieces and slugs

[bajaman]

I'd use what's available and simply tweak the wind.

HTH,

By tweaking the wind, do you mean less or more turns on each bobbin? Please elaborate if you wish to.

[LtKojak]

By tweaking the wind, do you mean less or more turns on each bobbin? Please elaborate if you wish to.

Yes, and/or using a different TPL and/or tension. Winders do it all the time to compensate for different batches of wire for their own winds anyway, so I don't see all the fuss to get SS slugs that may or may not give the desired outcome, whatever that may be.

HTH,

[Mike Sulzer]

Yes, and/or using a different TPL and/or tension. Winders do it all the time to compensate for different batches of wire for their own winds anyway, so I don't see all the fuss to get SS slugs that may or may not give the desired outcome, whatever that may be.

HTH,

In the operation of the pickup, currents are induced into the metal parts, especially the cores or blades. These currents are a function of both the permeability and conductivity of the magnetic material. These currents, usually referred to as eddy currents, cause a frequency selective loss that cannot be duplicated exactly by altering the parameters of the wind. The the sound of the pickup is to at least to some extent a unique function of the material. The core material is very important in determining the sound of the pickup.

[LtKojak]

Hello Pepe
I have tried most of the low carbon steels available from different suppliers - none of them come anywhere near the Seymour Duncan Antiquities Humbucker pole piece screws. the closest i have got is using 1215 unplated slugs and 1022 unplated screw poles.
I have noticed that the pole pieces in the SDAH pickups are NOT regular low carbon steel and they are unplated. They appear to be a grade of magnetic stainless steel as do the unplated slugs. This is

It's not a scientific test, but as I happen to have an Ant set myself, I took out the slugs and weigh and compared with the AddictionFX 1215 slugs and weight'em just about the same. I really can't tell what exactly you saw to speculate being that very specific SS 416 alloy. But hey! See it through and report back here. I, for one, am all ears to hear about your findings!

Yours very truly,

[bajaman]

As Mike says "the sound of the pickup is to at least to some extent a unique function of the material. The core material is very important in determining the sound of the pickup. " Yes, I agree - this is why pickups wound with similar number of turns but from different winders / manufacturers SOUND different. I believe this is a much greater contributor to a pickup's signature sound than the type of wire or winding technique although i do acknowledge these do play a small part in determining it's tone signature.
Thanks Pepe - if you have a set of SDAH pickups then you will know what i mean by the touch sensitive dynamics, sustain and general sharp but warm tone signature - almost like a piano tone but when played aggressively like a good alto saxophone type response characteristic. I too have played around with different grades of metal for the slugs 1018,1022, 1215 etc. (plated and unplated) - although the inductance measurements are very close, there is a slightly different response or feel with these different low carbon steel grades - i am currently playing around with some cheap 5mm diameter x15mm long ferrite rods from China - cheap as chips! I am picking that these will not have a lot of carbon content. I have yet to listen to how they sound or feel to play but i have noticed quite a significant rise in inductance and slight drop in gauss level at the top of the poles. For example: 5000 turn 42awg spn wire coil on cheap bobbin measures 1.8H with original Chinese plated steel slugs, and 2.1H with the ferrite rods. I measured nearly 300gauss with the spin doctor which dropped to 260gauss with the ferrite. A bit off topic i know but just an illustration of how the core material definitely affects the inductance and permeability of the coil.

[LtKojak]

For the record, I've got all the characteristics from your description from the Ant simply by modding the Epiphone Alnico Classic Pro p'ups that came stock with my Epi ES-339.

I've replaced the magnets(A3n/A2b), 1018 keeper bars, 1215 slugs and screws (1022n/1018b) that Mojotone and AddictionFX supplied, plus I've converted'em to braided wire, and it became the main instrument for my Smooth Jazz project. Not bad for a couple of Franklins, uh?

[rjb]

For the record, I've got all the characteristics from your description from the Ant simply by modding the Epiphone Alnico Classic Pro p'ups that came stock with my Epi ES-339....

Yes sir, I've been using this same old hammer all my life. Only replaced the handle three times, and the head twice. Pa-rum-dum.

[bajaman]

lol - ok, the thread has gone well and truly off the rails now - no problem though. I will eventually locate a source of 416, 420, or 430 pole screws and slugs to experiment with but not prepared to outlay several hundred dollars at this point in time. I will say that i have tried exactly the same thing as Pepe with replacement screws, keeper bar and slugs in some Chinese humbuckers I purchased from Donlis Musical Instruments on AliExpress - US$25.00 for a pair of alnico II bridge and neck pickups. And yes, I got very close to the response of the SDAH pickups using the existing magnet (gauss adjusted to match the SD) some 1215 unplated slugs that I hand cut with a hacksaw and 1018 unplated screw poles from Dennis at Addiction FX. The magic did not appear though until I replaced the shielded 4 core cable with the vintage braided push back wire, and then - there it was! the Donlis pickups are reasonably well made and excellent value for the low price but, the wiring is incorrect - they come with the black wire connected to ground instead of the green wire. The correct wiring is: Black, signal output; Green, ground; and red and white connected together - hope that makes sense! It does indeed appear to be the case that, the lower the carbon content the better the tone and output level. 1215 has only half the carbon content of 1018 steel (0.09% vs 0.18% ). I am waiting the arrival of some 1010 unplated slugs and 1010 nickel plated pole screws from Dennis at Addiction FX - the 1010 slugs will be very similar to the 1215 perhaps ? I am picking the 1010 pole screws will make a bigger difference though - we shall see. Dennis has told me he did the metallurgy test on a vintage PAF pickup, and the screws were made of 1010 alloy More when they arrive ;-)
cheers
Steve

[LtKojak]

It does indeed appear to be the case that, the lower the carbon content the better the tone and output level.

You should define "better" here, Steve.

I am waiting the arrival of some 1010 unplated slugs and 1010 nickel plated pole screws from Dennis at Addiction FX - the 1010 slugs will be very similar to the 1215 perhaps ?

I've tried old Mojotone 1010 slugs and were "muddy" to my ears. However, they were suitable for bridge p'ups for players playing with gain all the time. Just the opposite of mine, as a player!

I am picking the 1010 pole screws will make a bigger difference though - we shall see. Dennis has told me he did the metallurgy test on a vintage PAF pickup, and the screws were made of 1010 alloy More when they arrive ;-)

I've seen at least a couple of dozen destructive analisys of original parts from allegedly dead PAFs, and I got results all over the place... several including non-standard alloys. However, as I don't make PAF replicas, I just use my ears and tweak my own formulae to tackle the task ahead. I don't obsess, I just deliver a solution for a problem and until now, no complaints have ever been filed.

And last but not least: no p'up will ever sound good if the instrument's not set-up right.

HTH,

[salvarsan]

And last but not least: no p'up will ever sound good if the instrument's not set-up right.

That borders on snark.

Allow me to cross the border into Full Snark:
"The largest noise contribution in the system comes from the person holding the guitar."

[David King]

Yes, it must be the caustic sweat.
I'll just point out again that steel's and especially stainless steel's magnetic properties are directly affected by "work hardening" i.e. the stresses imposed on the steel from bending, rolling, hammering, stretching, compressing etc. Unless you start every test with completely annealed material you'll never know what it went though before you got your hands on it.

[bajaman]

Pepe wrote: "I've seen at least a couple of dozen destructive analisys of original parts from allegedly dead PAF"
Would you care to elaborate Pepe - curious minds would like to know what chemical compositions you have seen ;-)
I do feel that there are certain mismatches of alloys for the slugs and pole screws that deliver a fuller tone with a higher clarity pick attack, as well as some combinations that give a brittle and sterile response with very low bass output. the most frustrating thing is not knowing the chemical composition (within reasonable %) of the parts one is dealing with. For example, the Lindy Fralin nickel plated pole screws are very loud and bright sounding to my ears but i doubt very much that Mr Fralin will tell us the actual composition of the steel used. The same goes for Seymour Duncan, Dimarzio, Stephens, Throbak etc. Of course the chemical composition of the parts is only one aspect contributing to the core material's "personality" - was the material cold rolled, hot rolled, annealed, tempered, or case hardened before or after machining ? So many variables means that it is virtually impossible for any pickup maker's pickups to ever sound or feel the same as another's. I am certainly not obsessing Pepe, just trying different materials to help established what sounds and feels the best for my playing experience. However at the risk of repeating myself, i did find a major improvement to my ears when i replaced the 4 core plus shielded cable with vintage push back braided cable - far greater than I would have believed without trying it! Last but not least: "no p'up will ever sound good if the instrument's not set-up right." And - the same pickup will sound completely different on another guitar
cheers
Steve

[LtKojak]

curious minds would like to know what chemical compositions you have seen ;-)

Sorry, I don't have'em in my possession anymore.

However, that was my way to say that, being those alloys either unknown or not available, I decided to use what in fact IS available, and tweak by ear once installed in the chosen instrument.

Maybe I'm a simpleton, granted, but to make work what you have, I'd call it "pragmatic".

Over and out! *mic dropping*

[bajaman]

"Sorry, I don't have'em in my possession anymore" - now how did i know that was going to be your answer ?
"Maybe I'm a simpleton" - somehow I very much doubt that, but I do acknowledge one has to make do with the materials one has at his disposal, and I have achieved some very good results with your advice Pepe.
Cheers
Steve

[LtKojak]

"Sorry, I don't have'em in my possession anymore" - now how did i know that was going to be your answer ?
Steve

OK, while I was touring, lighting stroke and burned down to the ground the house where I used to live.

Even though I did get plenty of money from the insurance, I lost EVERYTHING from my past, including the only existing images of my late parents.

Not something I like to talk about.