Major bummer...misleading price quotes.

[WolfeMacleod]

But, there is a silver lining. Our mold is back from polishing and ready to produce.

The Bummer?

Recently I was connected with a company who offered some outstanding quotes for tooling costs and base-plates. After providing them with samples and drawings, they quoted... $1770 for the tooling, and base plates @ .85 each @2000 parts. EIGHTY-FIVE CENTS!
I couldn't believe it. I was jumping for joy. Creaming in my pants.

No so fast...
I felt something was amiss, so I confirmed with them that thier quote was for nickel-silver. as requested.

Woops. Sorry. The tooling will now cost $4650 and the parts will now be $1.15. $1.15 is OK. In fact, that's a pretty decent price and I'm happy to live with it. $4650 is not.

That led me to another place... which does stamping for one of the majors.
After I told them what I've been paying ($1.50 as of my last order of 2000 parts at the end of 2013), how many I generally order at a time, and what happened with the previous quote, they said "We can be very competitive" For an American-Made part.
Again, jumping for joy. You'd figure "very competitive" would mean something akin to getting at least reasonably close to that price, right?

I got the quote back today. Killer tooling quote at only $1250.
Part cost? Not so killer, unless you're talking about my wallet. Even at 5000 pieces, parts would cost a whopping $3.08 each. And of course, higher cost as quantity lowers, as one would expect.


Ouch. What happened to "very competitive?"

Looks like "competitive" isn't so unless you order 75,000 parts. Then the price is downright amazingly outstanding. In fact, it's dirt cheap!




I wonder what they'll come back with for pole shoe quote, and flatwork quotes...



fek-all.

[big_teee]

That's why I'm a hobbyist, and not in biz!
Are you going to be in business, and live long enough to pay for all the tooling?
T

[bajaman]

methinks it is time to contact an Asian supplier ;-)

[WolfeMacleod]

That's why I'm a hobbyist, and not in biz!
Are you going to be in business, and live long enough to pay for all the tooling?
T

Till the day I die. Heck, it's already been 18 years.

methinks it is time to contact an Asian supplier ;-)

I've been buying my base-plates from Alex in Korea. They're OK, not great. Really wanted to go with a US-made part though, and have direct control over features, dimensions, material, etc.

[big_teee]

Until you die, would depend on how old you are now?
If you're 40, or if you're 70?
If 40 then it might be worth while, if 70, not so much!
I would stick with the import plates.
I've used some that were quite good!
T

[David King]

I'd keep looking, there has got to be someone who is well suited to doing these for you. It sounds like maybe these folks aren't very confident of their ability to work efficiently with nickel silver and so they are quoting high to cover their butts and they have plenty of low risk work to keep them busy.

[WolfeMacleod]

Until you die, would depend on how old you are now?
If you're 40, or if you're 70?
If 40 then it might be worth while, if 70, not so much!
I would stick with the import plates.
I've used some that were quite good!
T

45 in 11 days. I still got time

I'd keep looking, there has got to be someone who is well suited to doing these for you. It sounds like maybe these folks aren't very confident of their ability to work efficiently with nickel silver and so they are quoting high to cover their butts and they have plenty of low risk work to keep them busy.

They work a ton in nickel silver. For one of the big, big players.

[big_teee]

How about our own member Bruce Johnson?
He makes all kind of stuff.
Maybe he would know someone that could make these for you?
T
**I would think any sheet metal shop could easily make baseplates, with the right nickel sheet metal!
Also all the house siding places do all kind of fancy bending, and braking with sheet metal.

[Lollar Jason]

I think the first place was the one I told you about right? I knew it wasnt going to be 85 cents each because I looked to see what we pay per piece but the tooling cost shouldnt be that much unless you are trying to get every tool mark to match an original PAF. get ahold of me tomorrow and remind me and I can look see what the tooling was- also it will save money if you draw it instead of them if you know protocall. A little study up on conventions goes along way.

[WolfeMacleod]

I think the first place was the one I told you about right? I knew it wasnt going to be 85 cents each because I looked to see what we pay per piece but the tooling cost shouldnt be that much unless you are trying to get every tool mark to match an original PAF. get ahold of me tomorrow and remind me and I can look see what the tooling was- also it will save money if you draw it instead of them if you know protocall. A little study up on conventions goes along way.

Yea, the one you told me about. I have drawings that could be used. I don't care about replicating toolmarks... just a nice, fine looking part.

I'll ring you tomorrow. I got the quote back from company B today for forbon parts. It's a decent quote, and the quantities aren't outrageous.

[ken]

I think the first place was the one I told you about right? I knew it wasnt going to be 85 cents each because I looked to see what we pay per piece but the tooling cost shouldnt be that much unless you are trying to get every tool mark to match an original PAF

I don't care about replicating toolmarks... just a nice, fine looking part.

Jason and Wolfe are right, a good functional part will be a lot cheaper than one with all the 'vintage approved' tool marks and ripples in it. Unfortunately, every last added detail you put into a part is extra complexity for machinists to deal with, so 'vintage guitar forum approved' parts will be light years more expensive.

Which makes me ask... I wonder why Montreux? went to all the bother to make a new mold that wasn't so good if all the one they had needed was a good freshing up? You would think a good cleanup would have been LOTS cheaper than making a new one

[WolfeMacleod]

Jason and Wolfe are right, a good functional part will be a lot cheaper than one with all the 'vintage approved' tool marks and ripples in it. Unfortunately, every last added detail you put into a part is extra complexity for machinists to deal with, so 'vintage guitar forum approved' parts will be light years more expensive.

Which makes me ask... I wonder why Montreux? went to all the bother to make a new mold that wasn't so good if all the one they had needed was a good freshing up? You would think a good cleanup would have been LOTS cheaper than making a new one

Yep, exactly All the tool-marks and stupid crap in the world don't mean shiat. Sure, I appreciate it, it looks cool, but in the end... it's basically worthless.

If you're referring to the old Japanese bobbins, that mold wasn't owned by Yuichiro, so he didn't have any more control over it than did Allparts or Stew-Mac. He got them from the same source, who I identified wayyy back around 2005-ish, maybe earlier.
I will be sending bobbin samples to Montreux/Yuichiro soon.

[J M Fahey]

A late friend of mine in Argentina made the original Di Marzio bobbin and base molds and punches, even before Di Marzio Inc was born.

He actually made them for Alex Music Shop In NY, where Larry Di Marzio worked and among other things, rewound pickups, until one day he said: "boss, why donīt we make our own?" Gibson patent was about to end.

Alex who is Argentine, travelled to Buenos Aires for family business, met my friend, die maker Juan Sousa and ordered the full set, which given the then prevailing exchange ratio cost peanuts to him; the alternative would have been Japanese made dies and molds, very high quality but way more expensive.

They had some legal trouble at the beginning, because they thought the Gibson patent had just expired but there was some legal haggling around that until that was set.

They were sold as " Alex T Specials" and bobbins had a small "T" inside a circle; I had some of those bobbins myself.

Then Larry Di Marzio got an investor and took off on his own.

Juan Sousa custom made for me dies and molds for own production of: strap handles / metal corner protectors / rubber feet / metal skids / horn driver / tons of punching dies in all odd shapes such as slider pot slot ones, various rectangular rocker switch panel punches, aluminum bending dies to make custom heatsinks, and matching "knife and slot" sheet metal bending dies to make my own chassis,sadly left unfinished the chicken head knob die, and helped me build my vertical wood panel saw, also set up my lathe, a very talented and skilled person.

By the way, no CNC way back then, everything was miller, lathe, the ubiquitous "Do All" metal saw and lots of elbow grease, including some hand filing.

[WolfeMacleod]

A late friend of mine in Argentina made the original Di Marzio bobbin and base molds and punches, even before Di Marzio Inc was born,,,,,,,

They were sold as " Alex T Specials" and bobbins had a small "T" inside a circle; I had some of those bobbins myself.

Then Larry Di Marzio got an investor and took off on his own.....

Interesting. Very interesting. What years? I'm assuming "took off on his own" would have been some time in '75, when he started advertising....

This might have been handy to know earlier, what with the lawsuit and all.

[J M Fahey]

70 something for sure.
I remember Eric Clapton advertised the Alex T Specials, clearly remember the old black and white Guitar Player ads, and the weird thing is that he was not much of a hot endorsement way back then, he was in his "black years" , after the "God" era , and before he reinvented himself with a Strat instead of the earlier LP, maybe that helps place the year, which would be 1 or 2 years before LDM started advertising.
I bet somebody around here will have a full GP collection and can check that.
I remember they started selling the pickups, had to stop after a "cease and desist" letter, until it was proven it did not longer apply.
FWIW Juan Sousa still had the first Dollar bill he earned with this, framed and hanging on a shop wall, as his "lucky dollar"

As a side note, Rudy Pensa was also another Argentine who set up shop in NY.

Back to your molds, congratulations, the best investment there is, they self pay in quite a short time and then give you the competitive edge.

My doubt is: do you also have the sheet metal punching and bending dies or they are custom made by the stamping shop?

U$1500 or 4500 looks very high for a "setup fee" .
IF they custom make a set to do the job, fine, but then you *own* and keep it, and next time you pay a nominal setup fee, say a couple hundred $ at most, IF you order a sizable amount of course.
Otherwise itīs plain highway robbery.

Only part Iīm stamping now is the corner protectors (copy of old Acoustic / Sunn / ARP ones) , order them in lots of 5000 but they cost peanuts ... and are made in a single work day.
In fact double or triple plating (copper>nickel>chrome) is more expensive than the part itself, so next batch will be just super bright Zinc, newer formulations look *very* good (Iīm using it for speaker frames) and costs less than discarded peanut shells

Nickel silver is a very noble material to work with , very clean to work with, and they canīt charge you more to punch it than to punck plain iron sheet.

I always search for and deal with small car parts makers, who have all the necessary machines and personnel, work all day long, and are used to quote very competitive prices, since car companies (or aftermarket or second-source parts dealers) are as tightwad as they come.
The ones I deal with, and I guess it must be universal practice, charge "so much by the hit/punch" , every press downward movement, no matter what is done, be it punching a hole or bending some part; I suspect they are charging you based on how much they perceive the final product will sell for, so "luxury" nickel-silver "should" be 3 or 4X more expensive than "humble" CRS.
Well, that ainīt none of their business, the operation they make is exactly the same.

Some colleagues call me crazy because I make almost everything in-house , but although production complicates my life, I can sell at Chinese prices if needed and still earn money.