Humbucker Question

[vg3000]

A question for pickup makers.

I have a set of Gibson 490R/498T's in my guitar right now. I want to put a Duncan PAF that I have lying around in the neck.

I'm not fond of the 498T in the bridge (about 13.8k) and want to put the 490R in the bridge. From research I've found that the 490R and the Gibson 57' "PAF" (not plus) are almost identical and having same 8.5k impedance. But the 490R has more "upper mids" than the Classic 57'. I'm told they are both wound with same gauge wiring, both with steel base plates and both having Alnico II's in them.

What component on these pups would change the frequency range to have more upper mids?

[David Schwab]

A question for pickup makers.

I have a set of Gibson 490R/498T's in my guitar right now. I want to put a Duncan PAF that I have lying around in the neck.

I'm not fond of the 498T in the bridge (about 13.8k) and want to put the 490R in the bridge. From research I've found that the 490R and the Gibson 57' "PAF" (not plus) are almost identical and having same 8.5k impedance. But the 490R has more "upper mids" than the Classic 57'. I'm told they are both wound with same gauge wiring, both with steel base plates and both having Alnico II's in them.

What component on these pups would change the frequency range to have more upper mids?

One thing to check out is that the 490R has the poles spaces narrower for the neck position. It might not work well in the bridge position. You might want to use the Duncan at the bridge. Also the duncan probably uses an alnico V magnet, and not the alnico II.

Neither pickup has a steel baseplate... they are nickel silver, which is a form of white brass.

There's a lot of things that could change the tone from the Classic '57 to the 490R. The magnets might be a different size, and the metal parts might be different. They could be wound differently also.

Gibson say they use a hand winding (scatter) pattern on some of the pickups, and a neater machine wound pattern on others. They might use different types of insulation.

[vg3000]

One thing to check out is that the 490R has the poles spaces narrower for the neck position. It might not work well in the bridge position. You might want to use the Duncan at the bridge. Also the duncan probably uses an alnico V magnet, and not the alnico II.

Neither pickup has a steel baseplate... they are nickel silver, which is a form of white brass.

There's a lot of things that could change the tone from the Classic '57 to the 490R. The magnets might be a different size, and the metal parts might be different. They could be wound differently also.

Gibson say they use a hand winding (scatter) pattern on some of the pickups, and a neater machine wound pattern on others. They might use different types of insulation.

Thank you for your input. The Duncan I have does have a A2 mag (Seth Lover). The spacing is 50mm. The 490R has the same spacing but the 498T (bridge) has them wider (52mm). I'm not tripping on that too much as the original PAF's were both 50mm and the bridge just got the ass end of it in that trade off. The Duncan's impedance is a little lower than the 490R. I think the 490R would complement the Duncan in the bridge being a little higher output.

I'll have to check into the size of the 490 magnets. I have heard someone say that they could have a different pattern winding. But they are wound with the same wire.

A Gibson tech I spoke to swears that the base plates on both models (57' and 490's) are not nickel silver but in fact steel.

[David Schwab]

A Gibson tech I spoke to swears that the base plates on both models (57' and 490's) are not nickel silver but in fact steel.

Where do you find a Gibson tech to talk to? Who ever you talked to doesn't have a clue about their pickups.

Gibson has never used steel for the base plates. Doing so would cause a big change in the tone, and probably a volume drop off. Steel is magnetic, and nickel silver is not. The pole pieces are steel, as are the stud poles, and the magnet keeper. Using a steel base plate would short out the magnet circuit. PAF's used nickel silver, as do ll their modern pickups. Some makers like DiMarzio use brass.

To test it yourself, try to stick a magnet to the base plate. Keep in mind that it might be attracted to the pickup's magnet, so try sticking it on the leg that holds the hight adjustment screw. I'll tell you right now that it wont stick.

The '57 Classic uses plain enamel wire. I'm sure the 490R uses poly coated wire.

Check out this page: Pickups Guide; 12 Points of Excellence

1. Gibson invented the Humbucking Pickup in 1955
2. Gibson Pickups have been hand crafted in the
USA since 1935
3. Gibson pioneered the use of Alnico magnets
and adjustable pole pieces in pickups
4. Gibson Pickups carry a Limited Lifetime
Warranty
5. Gibson Pickups offer a 60-day Customer Satisfaction Guarantee
6. Gibson magnetizes our own magnets to ensure
peak performance
7. Gibson Pickups use German nickel silver
covers for sonic transparency
8. Gold Gibson pickup covers are 24 karat gold
plated for durability and beauty
9. Our machined pole shoes fit snugly to reduce
microphone effects
10. We use nickel base plates with threaded holes
(not stamped) to provide structural integrity
11. We use maple spacers (not plastic) to reduce
unwanted vibrations
12. Our pickups are wax potted against
microphonic feedback

If you still don't believe me, drop by the pickup makers forum and ask.

So, yeah, use the gibson at the bridge then.

[vg3000]

Where do you find a Gibson tech to talk to? Who ever you talked to doesn't have a clue about their pickups.

Most likely they don't have a clue about the base plates so you're probably right on that. But yes I called Gibson and I did talk to a tech who seemed pretty knowledgeable about the product.

The '57 Classic uses plain enamel wire. I'm sure the 490R uses poly coated wire. But he might not know what he's talking about?

There too the guy said they both use the same wire.

If you still don't believe me, drop by the pickup makers forum and ask.

Chill, chill, chill...

I never said I don't believe you. Basically I want to get as much information on the pickup because I want to make it into a pseudo PAF by swapping out a few parts (base plate, magnet, keeper, spacer, and adding a nickel cover). The impedance is right on the mark for what I want in the bridge sort of "Pearly Gates". I might swap in a A3 or A4 magnet though.

[John_H]

I want to make it into a pseudo PAF by swapping out a few parts (base plate, magnet, keeper, spacer, and adding a nickel cover). The impedance is right on the mark for what I want in the bridge sort of "Pearly Gates". I might swap in a A3 or A4 magnet though.

You're trying to turn an apple into a banana. Most of the things you have listed will change the sound of the pickup significantly. Don't get caught up in the hype of reviews, and jargon.

[vg3000]

You're trying to turn an apple into a banana. Most of the things you have listed will change the sound of the pickup significantly. Don't get caught up in the hype of reviews, and jargon.

I hear you about the hype. It's just that I had a Seth Lover 'PAF' in the bridge and the in the neck on another guitar I owned. I later sold it and put the original pickups back in. I wound up selling the bridge SL and putting the neck pup into a tele. Now I'm wishing I had that bridge pup back for this guitar I have now. The parts for the mods would cost about $15 and the mod would be easily reversible. The pup would not sound exact but damn close and $15 is heck of a lot cheaper than shelling out a $100 for another SL 'PAF'.

[David Schwab]

Don't forget that there were no neck or bridge PAF's. It's only more recently that pickup makers have been winding the pickups hotter in the bridge position. Some original PAF's had neck and bridge spacing, but that's not too common. Even my '81 LP had identical pickups in the neck and bridge.

Also no one is certain they used alnico II magnets. A lot of them are alnico V. I think they used what they could get!

I doubt you can improve a Duncan by swapping parts. Seymour knows his stuff!

Oh and I wasn't getting in a huff... I just thought you might like to hear some other opinions. There are guys here that know a lot more than I do about PAF's.

[vg3000]

Don't forget that there were no neck or bridge PAF's. It's only more recently that pickup makers have been winding the pickups hotter in the bridge position. Some original PAF's had neck and bridge spacing, but that's not too common. Even my '81 LP had identical pickups in the neck and bridge.

Also no one is certain they used alnico II magnets. A lot of them are alnico V. I think they used what they could get!

I doubt you can improve a Duncan by swapping parts. Seymour knows his stuff!

Oh and I wasn't getting in a huff... I just thought you might like to hear some other opinions. There are guys here that know a lot more than I do about PAF's.

Some great points. I hear they used what ever magnets they had on hand. A2,3,4,5's. The pup I want to mod by swapping out parts is the Gibson 490R not the Duncan SL. The Duncan is the one I wished I had another of, but I just don't have the cash for one at the moment.