WRHB Bobbins Machine Wound?

[David Schwab]

That just shows how important TPL is to the sound.

Is it really? If you hand wind, you can't count the TPL with any success. I never do. I just wind neatly.

And since every hand wound coil is random, every hand wound single coil should sound very different. Right? Since the TPL is also random. Especially if you scatter.

But that's never the case. If you wind two coils with the same number of turns, they sound the same.

So I'm of the opinion that TPL is not as important as people think. I pay no attention to it, and all my pickups of one model sound the same. But I also acknowledge that I might very well wind them all with a similar TPL, just because that's the way I wind.

[Jim Darr]

Is it really? If you hand wind, you can't count the TPL with any success. I never do. I just wind neatly.

And since every hand wound coil is random, every hand wound single coil should sound very different. Right? Since the TPL is also random. Especially if you scatter.

But that's never the case. If you wind two coils with the same number of turns, they sound the same.

But I also acknowledge that I might very well wind them all with a similar TPL, just because that's the way I wind.. I pay no attention to it, and all my pickups of one model sound the same. But I also acknowledge that I might very well wind them all with a similar TPL, just because that's the way I wind.

"Is it really?" YES, it really is important!!! A low TPL count will sound much different than a high TPL count. I've performed controlled tests and this proves true each time. The trick is being able to relilibly count and control TPL.

"If you hand wind, you can't count the TPL with any success." AGREE

"If you wind two coils with the same number of turns, they sound the same." No they really don't if you hand guide.

"But I also acknowledge that I might very well wind them all with a similar TPL, just because that's the way I wind." This may be true for you, but most for most hand guided winders it is probably not.

[big_teee]

I agree with DS.
I get consistent results hand winding.
Those that say you can't, are usually machine winders.
Use what you have, and Use what you like.
T

[jrdamien]

"Is it really?" YES, it really is important!!! A low TPL count will sound much different than a high TPL count. I've performed controlled tests and this proves true each time. The trick is being able to relilibly count and control TPL.

"If you hand wind, you can't count the TPL with any success." AGREE

"If you wind two coils with the same number of turns, they sound the same." No they really don't if you hand guide.

"But I also acknowledge that I might very well wind them all with a similar TPL, just because that's the way I wind." This may be true for you, but most for most hand guided winders it is probably not.

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that what DS meant weren't extreme variations of high and low TPL.

Have your controlled tests measured the difference between hand winding and mechanical drift in any given mechanical setup and, if so, were those tests listening tests or tests that, while showing a difference, may not be audible (clearly or otherwise)?

[Jim Darr]

I agree with DS.
I get consistent results hand winding.
Those that say you can't, are usually machine winders.
Use what you have, and Use what you like.
T

Teee,

For the record, again, I hand wind & machine wind.

I get "very similar" results hand winding, not "consistent". That is the nature of hand winding, even if you are very experienced at it. I am well aware that many will take exception to this position. But, from my experience this is true.

I don't believe one is better than the other. Really I don't!!! Each has its place. And each has its pros and cons.

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that what DS meant weren't extreme variations of high and low TPL.

Have your controlled tests measured the difference between hand winding and mechanical drift in any given mechanical setup and, if so, were those tests listening tests or tests that, while showing a difference, may not be audible (clearly or otherwise)?

jrdamien,

To me, the only tests that really matter are "listening tests".

You can eliminate most "mechanical drift" issues with a properly setup auto traverse machine. I am talking about well maintained commercially made winders, not home brew builds.

I can only speak from my own experience both hand winding and machine winding. AND, I know that others will have their own opinions based on their experience. I am not pitching one as better than the other, just pointing out some truths IMO.

And since some will disagree with my conclusions it is better to just leave it as that.

[jrdamien]

jrdamien,

You can eliminate most "mechanical drift" issues with a properly setup auto traverse machine. I am talking about well maintained commercially made winders, not home brew builds.

If only Gibson had access to this knowledge.

I can only speak from my own experience both hand winding and machine winding. AND, I know that others will have their own opinions based on their experience. I am not pitching one as better than the other, just pointing out some truths IMO.

And since some will disagree with my conclusions it is better to just leave it as that.

I was not being snarky but seriously asking if it was a listening test or otherwise.

And at the end of the day this issue is moot, even here and even among those who don't think TPL is the end all-be all but are still reluctant to share numbers.

As to WRHB original tpl I've got the answer.

[Jim Shine]

Back on topic, just for future reference, every pickup made at CBS was machine wound. Hand winding was too inefficient for the high volume production they required. The machines began well before CBS and have continued to be used on mass production Fender pickups to the present day.

[Jim Shine]

And in regards to TPL, for me, as a hand winder, it is nearly impossible to be accurate, so I ballpark. Rather than count my turns per layer, I watch the wire lay down. Different bobbins and the different machines I use tend to develop a certain pattern in how the wire goes on. I watch what it is doing and I do my best to cleanly lay down a layer of wire with no gaps. Back and forth, as close together as I possibly can make it. I have actually been thinking about wiring a strobe light with the trigger activated by the counter sensor to help with this. A strobe light for adjusting engine timing would be perfect. But will it just make my eyes go crazy?

[Jim Darr]

If only Gibson had access to this knowledge.

I was not being snarky but seriously asking if it was a listening test or otherwise.

As to WRHB original tpl I've got the answer.

Gibson's winders were consistent in TPL patterns according to what machine they were wound on. They used several machines (hint, hint). But the total "Turn Count" was all over the place which helps perpetuate the myth that they had very little control whatsoever.

I didn't take your statement as being "snarky". I was truly trying to answer your question.

Very glad you got the TPL number you were looking for.

[jrdamien]

Gibson's winders were consistent in TPL patterns according to what machine they were wound on. They used several machines (hint, hint). But the total "Turn Count" was all over the place which helps perpetuate the myth that they had very little control whatsoever.

I didn't take your statement as being "snarky". I was truly trying to answer your question.

Very glad you got the TPL number you were looking for.

I was joking about the Gibson comment.

[Jim Darr]

I was joking about the Gibson comment.

Thought you were, but wasn't 100% sure as many of today's winders believe there was no rhyme or reason to real P.A.F. consistency from their golden period in the late 50s to early 60s. There is a lot of hype and misinformation floating around on the web concerning these pickups!!!

Good luck on the WRHB restoration.