Gibson ES-5 wiring

[kayakerca]

A local vintage guitar dealer came by to pick up the bridge I rewound for him from a '66 Hofner bass. He surprised me with a couple other guitars to talk about their pickups a bit (triple P90 setup). One was a '49 Gibson ES-5 and the other a '53 Gibson ES-5. They have one master tone and a volume pot for each of the 3 P90's. He thought they were suffering from low output. I measured the magnet strength compared to some other P90's in the shop and they all seemed OK. Also seemed OK when I put them both head to head against a Casino I have on the test guitar rack. Again, volume levels very comparable.

Here is where the volume thing got a little weird. So the bridge volume pot turns clockwise to increase volume when the middle pickup volume pot is dialed back. But when you dial up the tone pot for the middle pickup, the tone volume for the bridge pickup operates in the opposite direction (e.g. 1 is full volume; 10 is no sound, so sound level increases as you move from 10 - 1 and decreases as you turn from 1 - 10). Again, that reverses when you dial back the middle pickup volume pot. He didn't have time to mess around with it any further as his wife was patiently waiting in the car.

Anyone experienced this "change in direction" wiring setup before on one of these?

Just curious. . .

[Jim Darr]

A local vintage guitar dealer came by to pick up the bridge I rewound for him from a '66 Hofner bass. He surprised me with a couple other guitars to talk about their pickups a bit (triple P90 setup). One was a '49 Gibson ES-5 and the other a '53 Gibson ES-5. They have one master tone and a volume pot for each of the 3 P90's. He thought they were suffering from low output. I measured the magnet strength compared to some other P90's in the shop and they all seemed OK. Also seemed OK when I put them both head to head against a Casino I have on the test guitar rack. Again, volume levels very comparable.

Here is where the volume thing got a little weird. So the bridge volume pot turns clockwise to increase volume when the middle pickup volume pot is dialed back. But when you dial up the tone pot for the middle pickup, the tone volume for the bridge pickup operates in the opposite direction (e.g. 1 is full volume; 10 is no sound, so sound level increases as you move from 10 - 1 and decreases as you turn from 1 - 10). Again, that reverses when you dial back the middle pickup volume pot. He didn't have time to mess around with it any further as his wife was patiently waiting in the car.

Anyone experienced this "change in direction" wiring setup before on one of these?

Just curious. . .

Weird. I have seen only a few of these a long time ago and don't recall any issues with the volume reversing. But they may have been the later "Switchmaster" version with separate tone controls for each pickup. I can't really recall as it was such a long time ago.

Is it wired correctly? ...maybe someone modified the schematic. Did both the '53 & '49 do the same thing?

Here is a link to the wiring diagram for the ES-5.

http://archive.gibson.com/Files/schematics/ES5.PDF

Looks like all three volume pots should be wired in the same rotational direction.

Let us know what you find out.

[kayakerca]

Thanks for the input and wiring diagram Jim. We didn't have time to pull everything out the f-holes as Mike's wife was waiting patiently in the car. on the surface, the 3 way switch was wired as follows. . . position 1 - neck only; position 2 - middle and bridge; position 3 bridge only. Without the switch incorporated into the ES-5 wiring diagram, it makes it a little harder for me to see what could cause the alternating direction of the volume pot on the bridge pickup depending on where the middle pickup volume pot was set. Mike is going to do a little research on the issue as well. Hopefully he'll pull the electronics out of the guitar to visually see how it is wired. I'll definitely report back on what he finds out if anything. Not sure he wants to leave a $10k+ instrument at my shop for me to pull apart as my interest dictates. We didn't have time to put the '49 through the same check for the way the pots/switch interacted, again, because his wife was patently waiting in the car.

Edited................

As I look through more images on the internet of early '50's ES-5, 3 P90 guitars, I don't see a 3 way switch on any of them. I assume the switch must have been an addon and originally which pickups were active must have been controlled solely by the 3 volume controls.

[Jim Darr]

Thanks for the input and wiring diagram Jim. We didn't have time to pull everything out the f-holes as Mike's wife was waiting patiently in the car. on the surface, the 3 way switch was wired as follows. . . position 1 - neck only; position 2 - middle and bridge; position 3 bridge only. Without the switch incorporated into the ES-5 wiring diagram, it makes it a little harder for me to see what could cause the alternating direction of the volume pot on the bridge pickup depending on where the middle pickup volume pot was set. Mike is going to do a little research on the issue as well. Hopefully he'll pull the electronics out of the guitar to visually see how it is wired. I'll definitely report back on what he finds out if anything. Not sure he wants to leave a $10k+ instrument at my shop for me to pull apart as my interest dictates. We didn't have time to put the '49 through the same check for the way the pots/switch interacted, again, because his wife was patently waiting in the car.

Jim,

Now I am a little confused....I thought you were talking about the early versions that had only 3 volumes, one master tone control, and NO switch which should be consistent for the years you mentioned.

However, you mention a three position switch???? I thought when they went to the "Switchmaster" in "55 the switch was a 4 position switch. Could the wiring be heavily modified?

Can you clear up my confusion?

[kayakerca]

I had the wrong guitar. He did bring 2 Gibson's, but the second was a '48 L5. They were both triple P90 setups (hence my excuse for my brain fart on which was which), but the L5 was the one with the volume control issue. The wiring diagram you provided would be bang on for the ES-5 with 3 volume pots and a master tone pot.

Here's a link to the L5:

1948 Gibson L-5C

Again, when the neck volume was turned up, the bridge volume pot would get louder as you turned it down and vice versa. I wish he had left it with me to pull the electronics out so I could figure out what is happening, but at the value of the guitar, I get why not.

[Steve A.]

Perhaps you could schedule a longer appointment where you could pull out all of the wiring. If parts had to be ordered I would carefully wrap the pots, etc., in a towel and have the customer take the guitar home until I could schedule another appointment to complete the repairs.

F-hole access to wiring plus customers' wives waiting outside in cars add up to a very stressful situation!

Steve A.

[Tracy]

I recently acquired an all original 1950 Gibson Es-5. It has the same unusual syptoms of volume controls working in the opposite direction. If they are all off and i turn them up independantly they work fine. If i try using them together I have the same issues with the controls functioning in the opposite direction as did the original poster here on the forum. Has anyone been able to diagnose the issue? I thought i would check in here before i started to remove the electeonics and look around. Thanks for any help.

[Steve A.]

I recently acquired an all original 1950 Gibson Es-5. It has the same unusual syptoms of volume controls working in the opposite direction. If they are all off and i turn them up independantly they work fine. If i try using them together I have the same issues with the controls functioning in the opposite direction as did the original poster here on the forum. Has anyone been able to diagnose the issue? I thought i would check in here before i started to remove the electeonics and look around. Thanks for any help.

In Post #5 kayakerca clarifies that it was the 1948 L5 with the added selector switch that was having the problem (the 1953 ES-5 was operating properly according to the schematic uploaded in Post #2.)

So does your ES-5 have a 3 position switch? If not then it sounds like a different wiring problem which would require a different solution.

Perhaps a few tests could help us narrow down your problem.

#1. Does turning the tone pot up or down have any effect on the problem with the volume pots? (I would not expect it to.)

#2. What happens with the neck volume control if the middle volume control is set to 1/4, 1/2 or 3/4 rather than just full up or full down?

#3. Repeat question in #2 for the five other possible combinations.

#4. To get complicated try turning all 3 volume pots up 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and full up simultaneously. (Anything beats pulling out the 4 pickups and 2 pickups in your guitar, right?)

#5. BTW you are tapping the pole pieces to make sure which pickup is producing the sound, right? If, say, the middle pickup was out of phase with the other two pickups turning up the neck volume control with the middle pickup full up could cut the overall volume quite a bit but not completely. (The trick with OOP P90s and HBs is to blend them by ear, preferably with independently wired volume pot as in the ES-5... just a little can go a long way!)

FWIW in the 50's there were a lot of recordings with out-of-phase P90's... very easy to do by flipping the magnets on one pickup — carefully. I mark the outside of both magnets and make sure that they are on the inside when I am done. Sure beats pulling out those darned pots!

Steve A.

P.S. Unless someone objects I will be moving this thread to the Guitar Tech subforum so that fresh eyes might look at it (this seems to be a guitar wiring issue not a pickup winding issue.) I know absolutely nothing about winding pickups but have been making custom wiring harnesses for my guitars and my friends' guitars for 40 years now... and swapping magnets for about 15 years, which sure beats spending $150+ on upgraded pickups for each new guitar I bought!

[Tracy]

Thanks Steve A for the reply. I will try and explore some of the things that you mentioned when I get in the shop today. I'm no electronics whiz, so I appreciate any feedback. I have had some weird things happen if i mixed up a wire on a switch or forgot to ground the pot.... But this guitar is totally original and intact since day one (I got it fro mthe fellow who bought it brand new in 1950. Hes never had a thing done ro it). So i thought it would be best to ask and read a bit before i dug into its innerds. Thanks again for the reply and help.

[Steve A.]

Thanks Steve A for the reply. I will try and explore some of the things that you mentioned when I get in the shop today. I'm no electronics whiz, so I appreciate any feedback. I have had some weird things happen if i mixed up a wire on a switch or forgot to ground the pot.... But this guitar is totally original and intact since day one (I got it fro mthe fellow who bought it brand new in 1950. Hes never had a thing done ro it). So i thought it would be best to ask and read a bit before i dug into its innerds. Thanks again for the reply and help.

That being the case I am 99% sure that it came from the factory with one of the P90's out of phase... a really cool feature with 3 P90's since it offers both in phase and OOP linkages.*** Be sure to experiment around with different blends of the three pickups... I have a hunch that you will find some very interesting sounds!

And I thank you for resurrecting this thread... until now I could see no possible reason for me to have a guitar with 3 P90s. Now I *HAVE* to buy one.

Do me a favor... figure out which pickup is out of phase with the other two. (It would be the pickup which when turned up completely would create the inverted action on both of the other two volume pots.)

My "bible", the 1980 Donald Brosnac book on Guitar Electronics shows wiring diagrams for practically all of the Gibson electrics but they do not indicate pickup polarity, something which never occurred to me might make a difference.

Steve A.

*** That can be done these days with two P90s wired with two center conductor shielded cable and using a push-pull pot but being able to blend three P90s is even better. BTW can you also figure out which combinations are humcancelling? That would be good to know...

[Tracy]

I had a chance to give the Es-5 a good workout the yesterday. I didnt have your list (Steve A) of questions in front of me as a reference. So I havent had a chance to get those answers. What i did notice was that all 3 pickups are wound the same. Not totally sure if that means in phase or whatnot. I do get the whacky sorta half cocked wah sounds (and a slightly lesser volume) when I add them all together. When I add the middle pickup the volume starts by getting louder and then at midpoint it seems to almost start going back down a bit until it reaches what should be full volume. I wired up one of my custom guitars with three p90's (Brian May wiring )with phase switches and independant on/off switches. The es5 has some of the same sounds. I may be a bit premature in posting this as i havent had the time to answer your previous questions. i just wanted to mention the out of phase bit before I forgot. I will try and sit down with the guitar again Tommorrow. Thanks...