Dimarzio has REVIVED the blade trademark application

[rjb]

know the difference between patents and trademarks.. I wanted to see if people actually were paying attention to the post, so I switched the terms. At least I got a nice rise out of the local grammar police anyway.

I prefer the title "fact checker". My grammar sucks.
Pop quiz: In trademark law, the word “distinctive” has a specific legal meaning. Name the five levels of distinctiveness, from strongest to weakest. Just kidding.
EDIT: Here's the answer. (Someone might find it either slightly useful or mildly amusing.) http://music-electronics-forum.com/t42305-2/#post431656

Why is this application being renewed, and for a very specific set of pickups - double cream humbuckers with blade poles?

Wait a minute, let me crank up the old speculator. How about this?

...Bienstock has gone completely meshugenah.

Seems kind of silly to me,

Me too.

since double cream humbuckers would usually be wanted by vintage snobs and adding big ole blades to them would be antithetical... sort of pickle relish on chocolate ice cream IMO.

According to the DiM website, that model was introduced in 1979. The attached ads in the application appear to back up that claim.
Wasn't pickle relish on chocolate ice cream a fad in '79?

That being said, whats the point? Why is there a lot of money being spent on that project again? There must be some benefit seen by somebody to merit the effort involved for something that I have never even seen being sold myself.

Maybe "somebody" is Ronald Bienstock. He'll earn his fees regardless of outcome.

...Since DiM already owns the trademark on double cream bobbins *as a color*,

I thought so too. But maybe USPTO screwed up while updating to computer filing? Looky here.

I JUST FOUND THIS. CAN SOME ONE EXPLAIN IT?
https://trademarks.justia.com/731/50/n-73150505.html
Status 790 - Cancellation Pending
Indication of Colors claimed Color is not claimed as a feature of the mark.

he doesn't need a new trademark to make double creams with blades, he can just make them. He could go after others making double creams because his color trademark would be infringed.

Perhaps not. Probably up to interpretation.
The single drawing in the original trademark (specifically, a drawing of a Super Distortion) shows round pole pieces.
Functional or not, no customer is likely to confuse a rounded rectangle for six circles.

2) The trademark app we're arguing about was originally denied because its examiner found *blade poles* were purely functional not decorative.

Yup.

3) Retrying this application (with certain changes made) could be an attempt to get an examiner that doesn't understand how pickups work to pass the blade poles as purely decorative, like the chrome side strips and bumpers on a 1950s car.

Re: Occam's razor. This does not fit.
Have you actually read the application and associated USPTO documentation?
It would be impossible to overlook the numerous statements that the blades are functional.
No matter how ignorant examiners may be about pickups, they are not total morons.

4) If this new attempt works, DiM would get the right to make double cream pickups with blades.

???? He already has that right. I guess you meant exclusive right?

What's to stop him from next trying to trademark zebra humbuckers with blades, then black ones?

This.

In USPTO parlance, define the terms "inherently distinctive", "acquired distinctiveness", and "secondary meaning".
Then tell us if DiM has provided adequate and convincing proof of secondary meaning for this product.

One more thing... forums work to disseminate information. The information may or may not have anything to do with the reader's situation or interests. If you see something you personally dislike for some reason, don't comment on it. Somebody else may need the information even if you don't. In other words, sometimes it's not all about you.

Sometimes it takes a disinterested party to sort emotionally-charged speculation and disinformation from fact-based information.
Somebody else may need the information even if you find it distasteful or tedious and boring.

EXAMPLES
Information: Oppositions to a trademark must be filed within 30 days of publication in the Official Gazette, which is published electronically every Tuesday.
Speculation: Retrying this application (with certain changes made) could be an attempt to get an examiner that doesn't understand how pickups work to pass the blade poles as purely decorative,...
Misinformation: DiM's ultimate goal is to trademark all pickup configurations in all possible colors. But I'm going to foil DiM by registering the color beige (with Pantone ID#) and offering it to everyone for a $1 life-time licensing fee.

-rb

PS: I think I said this already, but I'm sorry if I sound like an asshole.

[David Schwab]

...
His argument that DM has "acquired distinctiveness" for the color cream is basically that, in the 1970s, DiM pioneered the mass marketing of replacement pickups- and that some rock stars still use them.
...

Without getting into this whole mess, I'll point out here what I did on a Facebook post of mine that Wolfe hijacked...

This is Guitar Player Magazine from 1978 with Return to Forever guitarist Al DiMeola.

Just looking at this photo, what brand pickups are in his Les Paul?



The only pickups on the market at the time that color was... DiMarzio. Everyone knew those were Super Distortion pickups.

This is before companies started putting logos pickups, so the color was analogous to a logo. Just like a lime green square is H&R Block.

Beanie might have a valid argument if DiM sold only pickups with cream covers, or if he could show ads with text and/or images that linked the color to the brand (e.g. "for that creamy tone, blah, blah, blah" or maybe a pic of a Super Distortion stuck in a dish of creme brûlée....)

Here's a detail in that argument. Yes, they make other colors. And they even state their standard color is black. But on the cream colored pickups there is no logo, but there is on all the other colors.

Because the color is the brand recognition.

And, disclaimer, I work at DiMarzio... but I'm not representing them.

But get over it, they own the trademark in the US. They did it first. The rest is sour grapes.

[WolfeMacleod]

Without getting into this whole mess, I'll point out here what I did on a Facebook post of mine that Wolfe hijacked...

This is Guitar Player Magazine from 1978 with Return to Forever guitarist Al DiMeola.

Just looking at this photo, what brand pickups are in his Les Paul?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]46181[/ATTACH]

The only pickups on the market at the time that color was... DiMarzio. Everyone knew those were Super Distortion pickups.


And, disclaimer, I work at DiMarzio... but I'm not representing them.

Now it makes sense.

Not only are you wrong, your are LYING.

January 1977.

[WolfeMacleod]

And as far as non-aftermarket, OEM stock pickups.. again, you would be wrong. Ibanez 1978 catalogue. Damned sure they were made by Maxxon back then.



and 1975, even.

[rjb]

Everyone knew those were Super Distortion pickups.

Not "everyone". I had no idea.
But I must concur that in 1979 the USPTO decided DiM had provided sufficient evidence of "secondary meaning" to grant a trademark.

This is before companies started putting logos pickups, so the color was analogous to a logo. Just like a lime green square is H&R Block.

No, not just like H&R Block. H&R Block provides notification of their registered trademark by placing a circled R in the lime green square.

AFAIK, DiMarzio does not provide any indication to notify consumers of the double-cream trademark anywhere on their products, packaging, advertising, catalog, or website .
The purpose of a trademark is to identify the source of the goods. In order to continue serving that purpose, DiMarzio is required to continue informing its consumers about the trademark.
For a very long time, DiMarzio has treated the the double-cream trademark like a closely-held secret.
Ref: Colour_trade_mark

Currently, there are only three classes of consumers who know about the trademark:
1) Dinosaurs who remember Al Di Meola's picture on the cover of Guitar Player;
2) Pickup makers who received a Cease and Desist Order from DiMarzio;
3) Forum members who read that "DiMarzio has a patent on the color cream".

It has been over forty years since the introduction of the DiMarzio Super Distortion pickup.
Over. Forty. Years.
Larry DiMarzio's assumption that guitarists in 2017 remember the introduction of the Super Distortion in the pages of Guitar Player
is like
Mary Jane Hudson's assumption that pianists in 1962 remembered the introduction of "I've Written a Letter to Daddy" on the stages of Vaudeville.

Yes, they make other colors. And they even state their standard color is black. But on the cream colored pickups there is no logo, but there is on all the other colors.
Because the color is the brand recognition.

Now, that is creative reasoning indeed.
The general public is supposed to deduce that double-cream pickups are made by DiMarzio because they are the only ones that do not have a DiMarzio logo?
Amazing. Truly amazing.

... they own the trademark in the US.

For now. The SD trademark is pending cancellation hearings.
http://music-electronics-forum.com/t43945/#post474584

They did it first.

Even if they didn't, they did trademark it first. But that's not enough.
They have been negligent in their responsibility to educate consumers of the source-identifying significance of double-cream bobbins.

https://www.finnegan.com/en/insights...d-4afc4f9c878e

In nearly every case in which a trademark owner was ″victimized″⁣ by the aesthetic functionality doctrine, the trademark owner exhibited poor trademark management or otherwise undercut the ″⁣source identifying″⁣ role of its own trademark. These cases provide a list of missteps that can expose trademark owners to an aesthetic functionality attack.

1. Failing to Use the Purported Mark as Source Identifier

In many cases where trademarks were invalidated due to aesthetic functionality, the owners of purported trademarks failed to follow the most elementary of practices necessary to protect their trademarks, such as failing to use the TM symbol to provide notice of its trademark claim; not placing the purported mark on packaging, tags, or labeling; not using written notices on packaging that identify and claim ownership of the trademark; and failing to highlight the claimed trademark in advertising. If the purported trademark is not immediately obvious to the consumer as a source identifier, the failure of the owner to educate the consumer of its source identifying significance can be fatal.

Sound familiar?

The rest is sour grapes.

I just call 'em as I see 'em.

-rb

[Sweetfinger]

So, ...just when did Bill Lawrence offer cream colored L-90s? A quick web search says they were designed mid 1970s. I've owned a few of them over the years. They were succeeded by the XL-500s, also available in cream.

[Steve A.]

I clicked on the link in the original post and it looks like DiM's application was rejected last month.



Steve A.

P.S. While I still do not forgive them for the double cream BS I must admit that they have come up with some very innovative designs with patents, pushing the envelope from technology going back to the 40's and 50's.

.

[Antigua]

P.S. While I still do not forgive them for the double cream BS I must admit that they have come up with some very innovative designs with patents, pushing the envelope from technology going back to the 40's and 50's.

What would be an example of an innovative patent held by DiMarzio?

[LtKojak]

What would be an example of an innovative patent held by DiMarzio?

Do a search using the name "Steve Blucher".

[Steve A.]

What would be an example of an innovative patent held by DiMarzio?

I've been pleased with some of their P90 stacks and humbuckers like their 36th Anniversary and EJ's... I looked up the patents for these pickups and they are doing things that weren't done in the 50's.
FWIW I look at their patents as sharing ideas with us not just protecting their intellectual property.

Steve A.

[Antigua]

I've been pleased with some of their P90 stacks and humbuckers like their 36th Anniversary and EJ's... I looked up the patents for these pickups and they are doing things that weren't done in the 50's.
FWIW I look at their patents as sharing ideas with us not just protecting their intellectual property.

Steve A.

I've looked at some of their patents, though not their stacked HB patent(s). They're interesting ideas, but I'm not sure how much they they improve the performance of their pickups over the 40's/50's designs. I was just wondering if you had more information in terms of what sorts of benefits are realized from their patented methods.

[WolfeMacleod]

I clicked on the link in the original post and it looks like DiM's application was rejected last month.



Steve A.

P.S. While I still do not forgive them for the double cream BS I must admit that they have come up with some very innovative designs with patents, pushing the envelope from technology going back to the 40's and 50's.

.[ATTACH=CONFIG]47560[/ATTACH]

It doesn't appear to be a final rejection yet. They can still respond, it seems.
BTW, I filed a letter of protest. It was accepted.

This should take you right to it:
USPTO TSDR Case Viewer

If not, access it from here:
Trademark Status & Document Retrieval

I urge EVERYONE to do the same, here:
https://teas.uspto.gov/ccr/lop

[LtKojak]

I'm not sure how much they they improve the performance of their pickups over the 40's/50's designs.

It all depends on your definition of "improve".

[David Schwab]

I've been pleased with some of their P90 stacks and humbuckers like their 36th Anniversary and EJ's... I looked up the patents for these pickups and they are doing things that weren't done in the 50's.
FWIW I look at their patents as sharing ideas with us not just protecting their intellectual property.

Steve A.

I recently worked there for a short time. They are like 5 minutes from where I live. The thing that impressed me was how many variations they have for parts... magnets, pole pieces, bobbins. It all looks very "standard" but really isn't. Some of their humbuckers have iron slugs pressed in from the bottom increase inductance, and other little things.

I really didn't think that they actually implemented all those patents, until I started to walk around and look at some models I wasn't working on, like the acoustic pickup with the small, round dummy coil.

They have some cool assembly methods too... none of which I can talk about lol

I was also surprised that they make all the MusicMan guitar pickups. Lots of pickups for Fender and Ibanez... The people there were nice, but the winding supervisor seemed to feel threatened by me. He knew NOTHING about the company, its products, or the artists that use them. lol

[ken]

I was also surprised that they make all the MusicMan guitar pickups. Lots of pickups for Fender and Ibanez... The people there were nice, but the winding supervisor seemed to feel threatened by me. He knew NOTHING about the company, its products, or the artists that use them. lol

It is written... those in high places that know nothing about their duties are threatened by underlings who do. Maybe he thought you were after his job?