Peter Green Neck Pickup

[JGundry]

This was recently posted on the LPF. Other than the heavy Formvar it seems to be just another way to skin the same cat instead of flipping the magnet. Also the Peter Green LP was checked at a recent guitar show and apparently the magnet is flipped which seems to contradict the reverse winding premise. But still interesting.

FROM THE LPF:

Here is some more info on the Bare Knuckle PG Blues set straight from Tim Mills:

"It's a common misconception that the Peter Green neck p/up is reverse polarity.Having spoken with the man who repaired it I can confirm it was rewound in reverse with heavy formvar and not simply a flipped magnet.We don't wire our neck out of phase we actually reverse wind the coils and that's where the tone lies. Either flipping the magnet OR reverse winding will not effect the neck tone on it's own however it does effect the middle position which becomes out of phase with the bridge. This is the way Peter Greens LP was configured-by accident due to the neck p/up repair- and so we make our set the same way.Many 'gurus' claim to know the secret of the Peter Green tone but none of them have actually found out. Having gone into considerable depth with not only Sam Lee who did the repair but also Charlie Chandler who repaired the LP after a car accident that Peter had I'm confident I've gotten to the bottom of it.The final proof is the people that play them, not only Gary Moore ! who's owned the original LP longest and plays the PG Blues set now but also guys like Bernie Marsden, Geoff Whitehorn etc all who know the tone inside out say we've nailed it. kind regards Tim"

I spoke via email with my main pickup builder, Peter Florance who is going to wind a set like this with the reverse wound neck coils, heavy formvar wire for the neck and 42 plain wire for the bridge. I told him I wanna try them too.


END OF LPF POST

[David Schwab]

FROM THE LPF:

We don't wire our neck out of phase we actually reverse wind the coils and that's where the tone lies.

END OF LPF POST

Who's got the can of bull shit repellant? Possum? I know you keep a can or two handy...

[Possum]

well.....

Spence really knows about this subject, I think he mentioned once that the current pickup in guitar has been messed with and isn't the same pickup incarnation that Green played.....Spence?

[Spence]

It's no bullshit. I'm only a bit suprised that Tim Mills has effectively told everyone what's happened to that pickup. He's blown the lid right off it.
Only thing is, don't try to get hold of Sam Lee because he's not actually Sam; that's a nickname and he was never Chinese either....

There you go, more mythology exploded.

But the main thing is this, now that Bare Knuckles has told the world, just try it for yourselves and then realise that all the magnet flippers out there were just plain wrong all along.

[JGundry]

Spence,

Do you know when Peter Green's neck pickup was rewound?

I will certainly give it a try but the magnet flip sure sounds like Peter Green to me.

Myths are hard to let go of. I can think of one concerning PAF's being hand wound that people have a hard time letting go of. Sorry Spence if you give me a straight line like that I just can't help myself.

[mick]

It works really well without flipping the magnet....,

[Spence]

I'm doubled up here. No offence to anyone else here, but Peter green's guitar spent all it's life untill recently in England. Why is it people on this forum think that anyone outside America can't possibly know jack shit about American guitars.


In response to Jon; I'm not intersted in mythology and I'm well known for exploding the myths so please don't keep going on about PAF's as if you're a world authority. You're not because you haven't seen enough of them. we can only go on what we have seen, taken apart and heared. I do value other's opinion's and experience and I'm always happy to hear the odd opinion.

When that pickup was rewound has no bearing on it's tone. What do want; an exact date? Anyway, do as you say and try it out.

Also, if anyone on here can tell me what songs of Peter Green's are classic examples of this tone I'm all ears.

Interestingly, before you all start compiling a list, Peter Green always claimed to have recorded with an ES 345 in the studio.

[NightWinder]

Hum...Fleetwoods The Vintage Yrs Live is always a good one. This whole thread is startling....some research and different configurations can yield results in tones and get that P.G. tone. Theres only a number of configurations for that tone. I suppose ground breaking in information via the web...."spilling the beans" for what it is exactly instead of totally relying on the ears...But the Ears would be a good starting point.

[David Schwab]

Spence,

Do you know when Peter Green's neck pickup was rewound?

I will certainly give it a try but the magnet flip sure sounds like Peter Green to me.

Myths are hard to let go of. I can think of one concerning PAF's being hand wound that people have a hard time letting go of. Sorry Spence if you give me a straight line like that I just can't help myself.

Wind direction does not effect the tone of the pickup. Since we are talking about two pickups out of phase, it's only out of phase in relation to the other pickup. So obviously, rewiring the pickup is the same thing as winding it backwards.

The only thing that might be different, and this is stretching it, it that the difference between flipping the magnet and rewiring (or rewinding) the pickup in reverse is which coil, slug or screw, has the opposite magnetic polarity to the bridge pickup's slug or screw coil, since the two coils sound different.

THAT's the secret my friends. Not the wind direction. Most people cannot hear phase changes of a single pickup. While it might be true that changing the phase of the pickup would effect things like feedback, since the pickup is now in phase with the strings/body, it wont change the tone.

So flipping the magnet might not be the way to go, if you need to maintain the magnetic polarity from one pickup to another, but rewiring the pickup at the coax will do the trick... no need to wind in reverse.

I wasn't saying it's bull shit that his pickup was rewound... I was saying that winding in reverse would sound different. It wont.

That's my 2 cents.

Oh and didn't Gary Moore own that Les Paul for a long time? Did he ever give it back?

[JGundry]

Spence,

The Peter Green tone is the middle out of phase sound and I agree with David that the reverse wind is just a symantic and not tonal difference with one pickup but I am open to trying it. For Peter Green out of phase sound with accompanying volume drop listen to Jumping At Shadows and If You Let Me Love You on the Boston Tea Party Live LP. With a cranked amp the volume drop is much less apparent but when the amp is not being pushed very hard the middle out of phase sound has a more apparent volume drop. 500K pots, 50's wiring and and a flipped magnet and balancing the neck and bridge volume pots will will get you the middle position sound in this song. If you want an earlier studio recording listen to Long Grey Mare.

I do think it will be an interesting experiment to reverse wind a neck pickup though.

Here is a further update post from the LPF:

Here is some additional info and corrections from Tim at BKP:

Hi again Todd, further to my reply yesterday re: Peter Greens pickups I mistakenly said Charlie Chandler repaired the guitar after it was in a car accident with Peter Green. The guitar was damaged in a car accident involving Gary Moore not Peter and Charlie Chandler then handled quite extensive repairs-cracks through the body and neck joint along with two breaks in the neck. Charlie obviously had to remove the pickups during the repair and had the covers off to check them over noting that the neck had clearly been rewound with heavy formvar and had grey coax hook up which we later found out was carried out by Sam Lee. It should also be noted that the guitar has been heavily modded during it's lifetime with virtually all the electrics and wiring being replaced at some time or other.Charlie even said it'd had push pull pots at one point.I appreciate that everyone has their own take on this guitar and the story behind the pickups but I've based our PG Blues humbucker set on the best factual knowledge I've been able to obtain and this is from the period the guitar was in the ownership of Gary Moore.Most importantly I've used my ears and those of players with experience of the original LP such as Gary Moore, Bernie Marsden and Geoff Whitehorn to make sure I've voiced the PG Blues humbuckers accurately. kind regards Tim

I did send a reply back to this asking about the magnet flip and the confirmation of this based upon inspection of the guitar since it has been in the U.S. with Phil at Maverick. Hope to get a reply later today.

End of LPF post:

There is already a bit of question about the veracity of Tim's facts here as he is doing a bit of revisionist history. The neck repair happened in Moore's possesion. The guitar in it's current state has what appears to be a grey 4 conductor wire coming out of the neck pickup but no push pull pot. So perhaps it was simply modified for a push pull pot by Gary Moore and later abandoned. Two pots have been replaced on the guitar and the guitar now has two reflector knobs. The reflector knobs only appeared when the guitar was in Moore's possession. But other than that if there is no time line as to repairs I don't see how anyone can confidently say that the Peter Green out of phase tone is anything but a flipped magnet. Green's guitar came from the United States and would not have been the first to have magnetically out of phase pickups. It happened with p-90's as well. It may indeed have all of the stated repair and even a reverse rewind but with no time line it is speculation.

Spence as far as the PAF facts go my understanding is based upon complete unwinds of PAF, early patent sticker and later patent sticker pickups. Since I now actually own a Leesona 102 I know exactly what might make one think that a PAF was hand wound if they did a partial unwind. Tolerances and quirks of the machine explain all of the variations in PAF winding patterns. Seymour Duncan who has more experience unwinding and rewinding PAF's than probably anyone on the planet also knows that all PAF's were machine wound. According to Seymour, Gibson had two Leesona 102's in the late 40's. I find it impossible that Gibson would not have used them for PAF's but would have instead hand wound PAF's. In his interview with Seth Lover, Seth clearly states that PAF's were all machine wound except for his first prototype pickup. There are no facts that support a hand wound PAF argument. Mistaken judgment cannot be chalked up as fact.

[David Schwab]

If the neck pickup now has four conductor wiring, then it's easy to wire it out of phase. Obviously with a stock gibson pickup, the 1/C coax is grounded to the base plate, as is the common end of the pickup, so you can't just switch the output wires. This is why people flip the magnets. But as I pointed out earlier, this might affect the combined tone of both pickups in a subtle way. But by having the 4/C wiring, there's no need to flip the magnet or reverse wind the coils.

I've wound humbuckers with both coils the same direction, and also in opposite directions, and I don't hear a difference. So I doubt winding them both opposite would matter either.

An easy way to test this is to take a humbucker and flip both bobbins over and leave the magnet the same.

Record it both ways and see if you hear a difference.

[Spence]

If the neck pickup now has four conductor wiring, then it's easy to wire it out of phase. Obviously with a stock gibson pickup, the 1/C coax is grounded to the base plate, as is the common end of the pickup, so you can't just switch the output wires. This is why people flip the magnets. But as I pointed out earlier, this might affect the combined tone of both pickups in a subtle way. But by having the 4/C wiring, there's no need to flip the magnet or reverse wind the coils.

I've wound humbuckers with both coils the same direction, and also in opposite directions, and I don't hear a difference. So I doubt winding them both opposite would matter either.

An easy way to test this is to take a humbucker and flip both bobbins over and leave the magnet the same.

Record it both ways and see if you hear a difference.

Of course winding the coils in the wrong direction will make no difference but when the two are on together you will, even you David, will hear a difference.

Jon, I shall agree to disagree with you and nothing more. Your opinion is just an opinion just like mine is. I think you are disregarding other people's findings mostly because you believe in your own convictions but also because you now have a Leesona 102 as a marketing tool.
I could easily have bought that Leesona myself but I have no place for yet another museum piece.

[David Schwab]

Of course winding the coils in the wrong direction will make no difference but when the two are on together you will, even you David, will hear a difference.

Then we have to determine why this is. I think it has to do with which coil is north or south compared to the to the pickup. That's why flipping the magnet will give a different result. You are combining the difference of the four coils, since you are canceling out what's common to the two of them.

But I don't buy that it's because it's wound in reverse. That's just a misunderstanding of what's going on. It makes no sense.

There's so many other things going on with that pickup... different magnet wire, and even the 4 conductor cable will give a different tone. I had a DiMarzio SDHB in a guitar where I ran each coil out on it's own 2 conductor shielded wire. The idea was it's supposed to lower the capacitance. I read about trying it somewhere, and I think it made it a bit brighter... but I never did an A/B test.

As I said, just take a pickup and flip the coils over, and see if it sounds different.

[mick]

Nah , he sold it to Maverick music , who sold it on after supposedly claiming it was for himself?? there was a big write about it in guitar and bass magazine..
But WTF knows...no point asking PG , he would likely just smile and stare into space..
I would think if Tim Mills has the likes of Geoff Whitehorn , Gary Moore etc vouching for the tone I would think he's pretty close to the mark..it doesn't matter if the reverse wind affects the tone different to flipping the leads really , if you are doing the pickup maybe it would be prudent to at least make an effort to get it right..which Tim seems to do judging by his user list...hey is he still hand winding or does he use a knitting machine??? jon can I ask why you bought the Leesona???

Mick

[NightWinder]

Winding direction, not a flipped magnet...