Advice for metal type pickup

[Peter Naglitsch]

I have mostly done standard to slightly lower output pickups for my own build guitar but also for other people. Now a guy wants me to build a guitar for playing metal. Mahogany body, maple top, walnut neck, ebony fretboard and a D-tuner to play low. He also wants a “metal” type pickup and I’m a bit lost here. He wants fat lows and clear highs. Pretty much a scooped mid. I have tried to search for this but no real result turned up (well a lot of hits for metal but mostly about base plates, eddy currents and so on).

I have a pretty good idea of what’s needed but I would really be greatful if some of you guys would like to give me some input on the ideas. I have a set of slug only bobbins lying around. They were left from when I made a Gretsch look-alike set of pickups with screw only. I thought I would use them as they would
1 look cool together with the rest of the chosen hardware
2 give a bit more bite as a result of the higher magnetic strength from slugs.
I have lots of standard bobbins so I don’t have to use this set, but I try to make something a bit unusual at the same time as I try to be a bit on the cheep side…
I will over wound the coils and use a ceramic or A5 magnet (I will A/B test both types). But I do not really know how far I will go on the over wounding business. I have maximum wound coils to 5500 turns before. I have no experience from going further. I can’t really compare the ohms on other maker’s distortion type pickups as I don’t have experience from using AWG43 (I have AWG43 and 42 available for those pickups)

Now to my questions:
How many turns would you recommend for the mentioned type of pickup? How many turns of AWG42 can I fit on a standard HB bobbin (meaning do I have to use AWG43)? Is it a bad idea to stick with the slugs-only idea?

Input would really be appreciated.

[kevinT]

IMO if you want to maintain the scooped mids i would stick with an A5 magnet

Wound to about 14K ohm with with either AWG 43 or 44 SPN would be my recommendation. I get nice results with these specs


Your going to have a rough time using 42 AWG for a high output pickup.

You also might want nightwinder's recommendation. He is the other metal head on the forum.

[NightWinder]

Sounds like a Les PAul with a walnut neck....Something similiar. 42- I suppose you could wind to 6k or so per bobbin, but at that point you'd have to clip the coils (assemetrically wound) pretty hard, and that can yield some nasty Highs if your not careful...plus the mids would be in your face. I'd not go this route.
43 is your mouthpiece.....I can hit 10k per bobbin no problem. This hot would'nt yield the results you want either. I'd spin it out to around 16k and put a small clip in it. This will make the mids very complex with rich overtones....more aggressive. The lows will be nice and tight with just the right amount of gerth. Highs are going to be killer as well. The key here is winding tightly- speed is your friend.
Also, try 43 Pe instead of Poly or solderon. Pe is going to clean up better with volume rolls and have some versatility, but full boar will peel paint with rich character.
For the magnets....Thats personal preference. I'd definately stuck with 1/8 in. Thicker magnets just seem to restrict too much harmonics for me. Get the tightness in the wind, don't bog it down with huge magnets....

[Dr. Guitar]

Clip the coils, do you mean wind with no consistent layering? Just build it to resistance?

[NightWinder]

No....Assemetrical coils- (differing resistance. Different turn count.). Just a term I got used to.....

[NightWinder]

No....Assemetrical coils- (differing resistance. Different turn count.). Just a term I got used to.....

oops....around 8,000 or so to start

[Dr. Guitar]

oops....around 8,000 or so to start

cool, thanks.

I guess one question would be what type of metal is this guy going for. I added my ceramic opinion because I listen to a lot of Japanese Doom Metal which is low end heavy. That's what I like. I don't doubt that nightwinder would have the best advice. I agree with what he said about 20Ks (10k per coil). I really don't like pick ups that hot.

[Peter Naglitsch]

Excellent advices guys. 1/8 A5 magnet, 16K using AWG43 and offset winds as a starting point.

The type of metal he’s into is more Dream Theatre and similar “high tech” metal, but he plays a lot drop D tunings so he has to have an extended low range from both guitar and pickups. An extended scale length would of cause help too, but all I have been able to talk him into is to try a 25” scale in stead of the 24 ¼” he usually plays. And yeah, wood-vice it is a LP with walnut neck but the shape is going to be like this:
http://www.peternaglitschluthier.com...star_Amber.htm

I got 1/8” A5 magnets so I’ll start with them. I will for sure try the same pickups with ceramics to learn the difference. My wire is Schatten AWG43. I don’t really know what type of wire that is, but that’s what I have so I’ll have to restrict myself to that.

So you say 8K per bobbin if I understand you correctly. Anyone have a starting point to aim for regarding turn count for 8k and AWG 43? Or du you simply mean that I should go to 8000 turns (8000 turns = 8kOhms)? I would really appreciate that information.

Oh, and when you say speed is my friend: I assume you mean I should go high. My new winder can go as high as 10 000RPM...

And also a quick (?) general Q about magnet. I have only experimented with standard and slightly degaussed A5 mags up till now, all with good enough results to gain repeat orders. Now I have got some A2, A3 and Ceramic bars to experiments with. I was under the impression that a stronger magnet, like a ceramic one, would yield better treble response and thus suit the “metal” flavour better. Am I wrong? Or is the A5 strong enough? Is the ceramic going to be a bit too much treble?

Is my assumption that the double slug design is going to boost the treble a bit because the higher gauss from slug pole pieces?

TNX for the help guys

[NightWinder]

Ahhh, sweet guitar- 6,000 frets (jumbos). Looks like an ass kicker!! I'd jam it for sure. Beat it into submission!
Schatten wire is poly...Thats good for this type of application. I favor the Pe....Thats personal preference though : )
8000 turns will put you at 8.4k....BAsically 1,000 turns per ohm....

The ceramics arn't soaking up eddy currents the same as the Alnico's, so yes you can get more highs with ceramics. This type with the clipping should be fine for alnico, but again it really is persoan preference.Offsets with ceramics can get harsh fast so Just try the two and see what you prefer but i think you can get the A5 to work really well. I think he may appreciate the versatility. If he likes the dream theater type tone, your on your way as I know this for a fact, as a great friend and user of my products just replaced Tony Mccalapine(*on tour with Vai) for the new Planex X cd/Tour. This guy has to play all the grounds well too... Doing A.Hallsworth, Petrucci, Tony's parts etc, so the voicings have to cover all grounds well.
The double slugs will increase the sensativity and sustain some....I too like the hell out of this design.....MAD Pissed off vibrato just kills with these designs.....

[NightWinder]

1,000 rpm....maybe 1,300 rpm. Focus and tightness!! Show some horns!!!

[Dr. Guitar]

The double slugs will increase the sensativity and sustain some...

Wold you say it's an obvious increase, or subtle.

[NightWinder]

Well. yeah I think there is some really nice qualitys with the dynamic response and a touch more sustain so this type of design tends to howl rich and slam really nice for shred and a more aggresive style.

[Peter Naglitsch]

Excellent help Nightwinder. It is highly appreciated.

On my old winder I used to wind around 1400 rpm, but for the latest set I did on the new one I went up to 2000. One set of horns, coming up!

The guitar in the link is my personal and it was that specific one that convinced him to go up to 25” in scale. I personally think a 25.5” scale is better for those D-tuning exercises, but he is used to do that on a LP so 25” will be a step in the right direction… Glad you liked it.

Sound like this is going to be a really interesting wind. Unfortunately I cannot report back in a wile as I have to build the guitar first…

Once again: A big thanx for your (everyone’s) input.

[Spence]

Personally I would use 44AWG wound slowly. I'm talking 200-300rpm. Keep the tension reasonably tight. A 15K humbucker is plenty. AlNiCo 5 is fine for these. It provides a great platform for distortion whilst cleaning up beautifully when turning the volume control down and at all levels, string definition and articulation are evident. The A5 allows for detuning too where Ceramic 5 or 8 can cause intonation issues.

[NightWinder]

My veins are Metal! 15k- 44 awg????(nom max?) Thats a underwound dirtyfinger. My pitbull will chew your kitty Spence : )