51 split coil P Bass pickup

[okabass]

Just making one split coil. Like to hear your opinions how hot to wind it?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/85y2g776wn...80818.jpg?dl=0

My goal is a bit thicker sound than original, but retain single coil character as much as possible. And of course noisless.
It has 20 mm Alnico 5 rods. AWG 42, and the coil space is 13 mm. Higher than normal to compensate possible hi end loss (because of hotter wind).
I wound once one to ca. 7 kΩ (2x 3,5 kΩ) . It was ok, but kind of lame.
Now I going to try more turns. What would be max turns ? My first intention is 8-9 kΩ. Is over 10 kΩ too muddy?

[LtKojak]

Just making one split coil. Like to hear your opinions how hot to wind it?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/85y2g776wn...80818.jpg?dl=0

My goal is a bit thicker sound than original, but retain single coil character as much as possible. And of course noisless.
It has 20 mm Alnico 5 rods. AWG 42, and the coil space is 13 mm. Higher than normal to compensate possible hi end loss (because of hotter wind).
I wound once one to ca. 7 kΩ (2x 3,5 kΩ) . It was ok, but kind of lame.
Now I going to try more turns. What would be max turns ? My first intention is 8-9 kΩ. Is over 10 kΩ too muddy?

The split Precision p'up is 2x10,000 turns of #42. As yours is significantly smaller, I'd say see if you can fit 9-10,000 turn of #43 as a starting point.

[okabass]

The split Precision p'up is 2x10,000 turns of #42. As yours is significantly smaller, I'd say see if you can fit 9-10,000 turn of #43 as a starting point.

Well, pre '57 and post '57 P pickups are totally different animals. As I wrote, I've made one 51-type split coil at 7 kΩ total, AWG 42. Can't remember the turns, but that amount of AWG 42 fits easily, no need to use AWG 43.
51-type split coil is like this: http://jlguitars.eu/shop/img/p/2/6/1...ge_default.jpg
57-type split coil is like this: http://jlguitars.eu/shop/img/p/4/6/4...ox_default.jpg

[LtKojak]

Well, pre '57 and post '57 P pickups are totally different animals. As I wrote, I've made one 51-type split coil at 7 kΩ total, AWG 42. Can't remember the turns, but that amount of AWG 42 fits easily, no need to use AWG 43.
51-type split coil is like this: http://jlguitars.eu/shop/img/p/2/6/1...ge_default.jpg
57-type split coil is like this: http://jlguitars.eu/shop/img/p/4/6/4...ox_default.jpg

Great, then.

BTW, why are you talking DC readings...? Do you wind to DC readings?

[okabass]

Great, then.

BTW, why are you talking DC readings...? Do you wind to DC readings?

Sorry don't quite understand why you ask. If I rewind a PU which DCR is documented 7 kΩ, then my coal is that. If I know the turns are 10000, I wind it to 10000 turns.
If you wonder how to turn to a certain DCR value. I wind some thousand turns and then scrape the wire's insulation and measure. And there you can calculate how many turns is needed to get the right DCR value.
For example , a 51 PU : (values from memory) one turn is ca. 14 cm, and AWG 42 DCR is ca. 5,3 Ω/ meter. So 1000 turns on that PU is ca. 750 Ω.

[Helmholtz]

Higher than normal to compensate possible hi end loss (because of hotter wind).

What makes you assume that a higher coil would reproduce more highs?

[okabass]

What makes you assume that a higher coil would reproduce more highs?

That's what I heard and read. Like:
https://sites.google.com/site/liamsr...-pickup-design
And real PUs. Like Lundgren hot P PU. 16 kΩ, 2-3 mm higher frame (=thinner coil). No muddiness.

[Helmholtz]

That's what I heard and read. Like:
https://sites.google.com/site/liamsr...-pickup-design
And real PUs. Like Lundgren hot P PU. 16 kΩ, 2-3 mm higher frame (=thinner coil). No muddiness.

There is no physical justification for such claim. And if listening comparisons seem to confirm it, I suspect that the wider and shorter coil had higher inductance. Whenever evaluating the sonic influence of a change in dimensions or other parameter it is essential to wire/select the samples to be compared for identical inductivity.
Otherwise chances are that you are primarily hearing the effect of the different inductances.

If the differently shaped coils to be compared have the same number of turns and the same cores/magnets/wire size, the thinner and longer coil will have less inductance, somewhat higher capacitance and most of all less output with respect to the shorter and wider coil.

Your coil height of 13mm doesn't seem to be extraordinary, so the effects won't be too strong depending on what other size you are comparing to.

[LtKojak]

If I rewind a PU which DCR is documented 7 kΩ

That's what I'm asking:do you accept to rewind a p'up when all you've got is a DC reading?

Because unless is a relatively known design, so I can refer to my fellow winder's factual knowledge of the said p'up, I wouldn't even expect to be nowhere near, let alone "nail it", tone-wise, just by matching a DC reading.

[Helmholtz]

The DCR is just a measure of the total length of wire in a coil for a given/known wire gauge. The direct effect of the DCR on frequency response (i.e. resonance Q) is rather weak. The dominant factors for frequency response are inductance and (cable) capacitance as well as the resistance values of the instrument's control pots.

[okabass]

There is no physical justification for such claim. And if listening comparisons seem to confirm it, I suspect that the wider and shorter coil had higher inductance. Whenever evaluating the sonic influence of a change in dimensions or other parameter it is essential to wire/select the samples to be compared for identical inductivity.
Otherwise chances are that you are primarily hearing the effect of the different inductances.

If the differently shaped coils to be compared have the same number of turns and the same cores/magnets/wire size, the thinner and longer coil will have less inductance, somewhat higher capacitance and most of all less output with respect to the shorter and wider coil.

Your coil height of 13mm doesn't seem to be extraordinary, so the effects won't be too strong depending on what other size you are comparing to.

HI
Ok. Thanks. If you say so.
If I wind the same turns count on a wider and shorter coil or thinner and longer coil, the latter has less inductance, which leads I get more treble?
Yes 13 mm isn't much more, but it might be enough. Can't find now the original '51 PU height, but I think it is total 1/2 ". So I think 13 mm is some 3 mm more.

[okabass]

That's what I'm asking:do you accept to rewind a p'up when all you've got is a DC reading?

Because unless is a relatively known design, so I can refer to my fellow winder's factual knowledge of the said p'up, I wouldn't even expect to be nowhere near, let alone "nail it", tone-wise, just by matching a DC reading.

Don't quite follow. If I have a broken Strat PU, and I know the DCR. Say it is (or was) 5,6 kΩ/ AWG 42. Then what I'm doing wrong if I wind it to 5,6 kΩ with same type AWG 42?

I can measure PU's inductance, capacitance, magnetic flux density (tesla/gauss), DCR . I have for example an oscilloscope, function generator and this .https://www.amazon.com/Labs-DE-5000-.../dp/B005EMT8PC

[Helmholtz]

If I wind the same turns count on a wider and shorter coil or thinner and longer coil, the latter has less inductance, which leads I get more treble?

Everything else being equal, yes. But the difference will not be dramatic. You might get a reduction of inductance by 10% to 20%, meaning a resonant frequency higher by 5% to 10%. But alternatively you could reduce your turns count on the wider and shorter coil for the same treble increase and still get more output, because this coil places the turns closer to the strings.

Yes 13 mm isn't much more, but it might be enough. Can't find now the original '51 PU height, but I think it is total 1/2 ". So I think 13 mm is some 3 mm more.

Actually 13mm is very close to 1/2 inch (12,7mm).

[okabass]

Everything else being equal, yes. But the difference will not be dramatic. You might get a reduction of inductance by 10% to 20%, meaning a resonant frequency higher by 5% to 10%. But alternatively you could reduce your turns count on the wider and shorter coil for the same treble increase and still get more output, because this coil places the turns closer to the strings.

Ok. Thanks. 10 % higher f res may be enough. I made it with 20 mm mags cause I already have those.

Actually 13mm is very close to 1/2 inch (12,7mm).

I mean the whole PU. If I remember it right the magnets were 1/2" long. The flatworks are a few mm. Coil's height is then ca. 10 mm.

[big_teee]

Ok. Thanks. 10 % higher f res may be enough. I made it with 20 mm mags cause I already have those.


I mean the whole PU. If I remember it right the magnets were 1/2" long. The flatworks are a few mm. Coils height is then ca. 10mm.

When you specify 20mm you are talking overall length?
When talking magnet height, you only count the magnet height between the flats.
That height area is what you are talking about concerning brightness.
I too agree 1/2 inch is enough between the flats.
I also never hear you say what the magnet diameter is.
Most of us prefer using inches, instead of MM, due to all the old published data, and the use of bobbin calculating software.
So when using data for pickup bobbin cores, use length, width, height between the flats, & flange diameter.
AC readings are great, but lots of basic hobby winders, use turns, and DCR, because of tools they have available.

T
** Hopefully this can be a place for all degree of pickup builders, regardless of the expertise, & technical tools they have available!