Is it possible to accurately describe the tone of magnets and/or pickups?

[Tone Cam]

That is clearly the case - just forgot to put it into the list of variables. Several well-known pup makers advertise models with 'degaussed' magnets.

I think that there are two effects:

1. The interaction of the poles and strings changes and
2. The small loop hysteresis losses vary with position on the demagnetization curve.

[Helmholtz]

When comparing PU magnets, everything else should be kept the same. Thus it may be a good idea to charge all magnets to be compared to a similar Gauss level.
There is indication that magnet strength on its own has some sound influence.

[Tone Cam]

Thanks for the inputs - they indicate that I need to provide some background and restate my question in clearer terms.

While every element of a player's setup affects the tone that he gets from his amp, it is possible to isolate the contribution from the pickup magnets by holding all of the variables, with the exception of the magnets, constant. Those who have made accurate tone samples of different pickup models know how to control everything that is downstream from the pickup and experienced winders can control the variables in their winding setup well enough to make a few test samples that have coils with similar tonal properties.

Assuming that all the variables affecting tone except the Alnico 5 pole pieces in a set of Formvar-wound, strat-style single coil pickups are held essentially constant, the tonal properties of different magnets can be compared by winding a series of pickups, sequentially mounting them in the same guitar, adjusting string height, etc. to predetermined values and plugging them into a test amp that has been warmed up long enough for its tone to stabilize before each test. Performing this test with Alnico 5 pole pieces from the 6+ magnet vendors that have been discussed in other threads on this site, will yield 6+ tones that are, in some cases, significantly different from each other.

I believe that it would be useful to have a clear way to describe these differences - both in discussions on this forum and in explaining to luthiers and musicians the tradeoffs associated with putting different magnets in their pickups. I further believe that the descriptions need use variables that describe tonal qualities as perceived by a human observer rather than numerical parameters that can be measured with an LCR meter, scope or spectrum analyzer.

So - to restate my original question in clearer terms:

Is it possible to describe the tonal qualities of different magnets using a few (<6) perceptual variables?? If so, what variables would you use????

[epizootics]

It would also be useful to have a similar system for pickup tone. A few established pickup makers have attempted to describe their products with variables like EQ, output level and 'attack' but these descriptions seem to leave out a lot of important tonal information.

Well, some of the "missing tonal information"...is going to have to do with the guitar the pickups are installed in, among others the scale length, pot values, the type of bridge, string length behind the saddles, the pickup's location relative the the strings both vertically and horizontally, and that's before you get into the shadier areas of 'tonewood' or the even shadier artistic intentions of the musician with said pickup. Fo'shuh some of those variables you can describe objectively, but there are far too many combinations for the pickup maker to take into account when describing their product. As Chuck says, is is down to the 'real life guitar player' to fill up those holes in the text and make an educated guess at what he's going to get in the end. And we haven't even talked about amps yet.

A pickup maker who states his pickup is the sole factor in the player's tone and says 'it'll give you this at 2.5k Hz' is either misguided or a crook of some kind. The best he/she can do is to quantify how much he/she can't predict, and live with it. The players have to live with it too. And most of the time they do

[Chuck H]

A few established pickup makers have attempted to describe their products with variables like EQ, output level and 'attack' but these descriptions seem to leave out a lot of important tonal information.

What's left out? I'm sure there's the consideration of what real life guitar players can cognate I suppose they could include "relative to a typical PAF" or something to add scale to the image?

FWIW I've never thought that the typical bass, mid, treble references were adequate for describing pickups. I really think you'd need AT LEAST six bands of eq AND a relative scale to known pickups if "I" were going to get my head around what it might sound like. But again, try that with Jhonny Rocker in his living room studio playing into a POD, Sansamp or Line 6. The typical demographic for these products gets confused when you say things like "upper midrange", "higher treble frequencies" or any expression that uses the abbreviation Hz. As a result I don't think there's going to be much outside of what people (likely people here on this forum) that own spectrum analyzers and such have tested for themselves. It'll be a small list. If "I" owned a spectrum analyzer and tested every pickup I've used in my life it would be a small list. But I'm an amp guy and not a pickup guy. But my point is that it's a tall order. Though like you I wish it weren't.

[Tone Cam]

I have been trying to come up with a system for describing the tonal properties of magnets of the same alloy that come from different suppliers. It is obvious that a variable describing overall EQ (bright vs. dark, or bass,middle,treble balance) is needed and a second variable that quantifies the density of harmonics (fat vs thin?) would be useful. It also seems important to have a variable that describes how smooth or harsh the tone is at high frequencies and possibly a fourth that deals with how open (vs. compressed) the tone is.

It would also be useful to have a similar system for pickup tone. A few established pickup makers have attempted to describe their products with variables like EQ, output level and 'attack' but these descriptions seem to leave out a lot of important tonal information.

Is it possible to accurately describe the tone of magnets and/or pickups with a few (<6) key variables?