Is it possible to accurately describe the tone of magnets and/or pickups?

[nickb]

The magnetic force varies with string excursion and makes the string react somewhat stiffer for up-and-down movements, thus increasing the strings' resonant frequencies in this plane. Sideways vibrations don't "see" much change in magnetic force during excursion and are far less influenced. The PU mainly responds to up-and-down vibration, but as the two othogonal vibrational modes exchange energy, a beating effect caused by the slightly different frequencies is produced, which shows in the envelope of the signal decay. The effect is strongest in the neck position.

This effect has been analyzed in detail by Professor Zollner and I think Antigua's measurements also show this.

Thanks.

I had figured out most of it. It was just the imperfectness of the spring changing the resonant frequency I missed.

[Helmholtz]

Of course the pickup moves due to string vibration pushing on the pickup magnets. And of course it's a very small amount of movement. But small isn't none. At guitar amp gain levels I'll bet the affect isn't insignificant.

If the PU vibration is caused by the magnetic interaction with the string, the result is increased damping/less sustain. I have no data for quantitative evaluation.

[Helmholtz]

Thanks for that fascinating tidbit

I can see why the two axes are affected differently, but what I cannot see is why the change in frequency. Can you explain a bit further?

The magnetic force varies with string excursion and makes the string react somewhat stiffer for up-and-down movements, thus increasing the strings' resonant frequencies in this plane. Sideways vibrations don't "see" much change in magnetic force during excursion and are far less influenced. The PU mainly responds to up-and-down vibration, but as the two othogonal vibrational modes exchange energy, a beating effect caused by the slightly different frequencies is produced, which shows in the envelope of the signal decay. The effect is strongest in the neck position.

This effect has been analyzed in detail by Professor Zollner and I think Antigua's measurements also show this.

[Chuck H]

Of course the pickup moves due to string vibration pushing on the pickup magnets. And of course it's a very small amount of movement. But small isn't none. At guitar amp gain levels I'll bet the affect isn't insignificant.

[Chuck H]

Thanks for that fascinating tidbit

I can see why the two axes are affected differently, but what I cannot see is why the change in frequency. Can you explain a bit further?

You're leading him

[nickb]

Strong magnetic force between string and PU increases the frequencies of fundamental and harmonics for up and down string movement but not for sideways vibration. The result is beating and dissonance, aka. stratitis. Damping can only occur if the PU is loosely mounted and actually vibrates.
I have not seen any evidence of increased string damping yet.

Thanks for that fascinating tidbit

I can see why the two axes are affected differently, but what I cannot see is why the change in frequency. Can you explain a bit further?

[ric]

As to magnet tone, in single coils i have found A3 not as bright as A5. Best way i can describe it was they would be good for a rhythm or backup guitar player. Turning the volume down to 7 or 8, hiding some of your mistakes. I didn't really like them at first, but they definitely grew on me. If i was recording i would want a strat there with a set of A3's along with other guitars.

Thanks for that, mozz. Sounds like A3 is an allrounder, at least as far as single coils go, and that's where I spend almost all my time when I play.

Now about this ability to cover mistakes... man, I found my magnets! $-)

[mozz]

"The idea that the strings cause the pickup to move is absurd."

Ok, if i put a magnet (or a pickup) on a scale (measuring grains, such as a reloading scale), place a guitar string above it, pluck the string, you are telling me the scale readout will not change? I can see it going lower as the string moves away and the magnet wants to follow the string. Most single coil and humbuckers are not mounted to anything solid, they are suspended.


As to magnet tone, in single coils i have found A3 not as bright as A5. Best way i can describe it was they would be good for a rhythm or backup guitar player. Turning the volume down to 7 or 8, hiding some of your mistakes. I didn't really like them at first, but they definitely grew on me. If i was recording i would want a strat there with a set of A3's along with other guitars.

[Helmholtz]

Why don't you make a case for how the movement of the pickup in relation to guitar string's magnetic coupling could possibly have any practical or audible consequences?

Why don't you ask sensible questions, taking into account what I already explained?

[Antigua]

Well, you are the expert.

"Appeal to authority" logical fallacy. Nobody's claims to expertise are of any relevance here.

Why don't you make a case for how the movement of the pickup in relation to guitar string's magnetic coupling could possibly have any practical or audible consequences?

[Helmholtz]

The idea that the strings cause the pickup to move is absurd. First, the magnetic coupling is very weak, so the magnemotive force upon the pickup by way of the strings is very small. Second, the pickup is much heavier, and mounted to a solid object, giving it a much higher inertia than the strings, by orders of magnitude. To the extent that damping occurs through that interaction, it would be on a nanoscopic scale.

Well, you are the expert.

[Antigua]

The idea that the strings cause the pickup to move is absurd. First, the magnetic coupling is very weak, so the magnemotive force upon the pickup by way of the strings is very small. Second, the pickup is much heavier, and mounted to a solid object, giving it a much higher inertia than the strings, by orders of magnitude. To the extent that damping occurs through that interaction, it would be on a nanoscopic scale.

[ric]

If you want to use use particularly strong magnets and/or very close string to PU distance it seems advisable to mount the PUs directly and rigidly to the wood for max. sustain.

G.E. Smith would seem to agree with you, as that's how he spec'ed his signature Tele. I imagine there are other examples.

[ric]

Single coil strat pickups can be mounted with springs or rubber tubing. Anyone hear that difference? I have heard some people can tell. I think, when you have these nodes, some will get absorbed by the nut, some by the bridge, if not absorbed, reduced and transferred. What nodes or frequencies are absorbed depends on the guitar components makeup. Maybe a brass nut works better with A2 magnets and a bone nut works better with A5, there are too many variables and better is objective.

I doubt I could tell in a blind test if a PU had the rubber tubing. I figure livelier is better, not damped, so I always use springs. But as (I think you meant) to say, that's subjective.

Would you (or anyone) care to bring me up to speed on A2/ A5 tonal differences? If that fits in this thread. I thought it was lower number= smoother/ higher= grittier.

[Helmholtz]

Single coil strat pickups can be mounted with springs or rubber tubing. Anyone hear that difference? I have heard some people can tell. I think, when you have these nodes, some will get absorbed by the nut, some by the bridge, if not absorbed, reduced and transferred. What nodes or frequencies are absorbed depends on the guitar components makeup. Maybe a brass nut works better with A2 magnets and a bone nut works better with A5, there are too many variables and better is objective.

If you want to use use particularly strong magnets and/or very close string to PU distance it seems advisable to mount the PUs directly and rigidly to the wood for max. sustain.