turns theory.....

[Possum]

pisssy part two :-)

One thing that guy ought to consider when buying these cheap pickups is that they are actually in a way more expensive than the boutique stuff (who came up with the "boutique" moniker anyway, its stupid...).

When you consider that Bill ain't winding these himself and isn't making them himself and probably buying them for $2 each from a Korean manufacturer, he is making an obscene profit selling them for $73 dontcha think? If you buy a hand built set the profit is way lower and they get an actual human to interact with and getting something built especially for their needs. So the cheap pickups may be great for most people but look at the economics of it, its a sucker buy , a high profit is being made, you don't like them you wasted your money. We make something you pay more but you pay for a service, not an Asian production product, you get a warranty, you get a tailored product that will sound good for years and won't wear off :-)

[Zhangliqun]

To complicate matters.... how about 5,000 turns of 42 and 44? Same number of turns, but much different resistance. What would be the level/tonal difference between the two?

Maybe somebody else already answered but just in case -- the 42 coil would have more more bass/mid and more overall output because the coil would be bigger/wider and see a bigger hunk of string. As for the EXACT amount of difference, I can't say.

[Rosewood]

I don't know if this a part of the BL pickups sound and output but I recall him talking about some way he checks to make sure they're are no eddy currents in the pickup or low amount anyway. Does eddy currents hurt output?

[Possum]

Eddy

well its impossible to have no eddy currents. He is just probably checking the inductance is correct for his recipe, too high inductance usually means a shorted couple of turns in the coil. Yeah he ought to do that to check what was shipped to him to make sure its good to go for the customer. I check all mine before they go out the same way and he uses the same Extech meter I use :-) Seen a picture of him using it in one of his ads....

[madialex]

Well Possum, you know the site I'm talking about, hell you have probably been banned from there as I have and a few others have at some point. The TDPRI.
Over there where the Don Mare posts and BL posts are are so rampant thats all you hear about. I got banned from there for talking about my pickups one time but you have guitar builders there who talk up their stuff all the time. One guy who is a known BL dealer is on every post for someone asking about what PU's to use and nothing ever gets said. I really want to say something but will get shut down in a heartbeat. Hell even Don got banned for talking up his PU's. Seems if you make PU's it's taboo to talk about your wares, but a builder, you can yak for days about it.

It's like those folks cant think outside the little box they are in, 1 person says a PU is good then they all play follow the leader. They are some real snobs there as well, they dont even want to hear about another PU as long as 1 makers stuff seems to be what every body is getting.

I wanted to jump in last night and remind them there are many good PU makers out there but that would be a flame post in their eyes. I just go there to see if anyone has done anything or said anything different other than the DM, BL or SD or even dimarzio threads there. Hell there are a very few people mentioning Jason's stuff and even yours Possum, but as usual the thread turns into a DM or BL post.

Hell even at the MLP, they started a thread for PU makers to post sound clips but Will Boggs didnt want his in that thread and I think I know why now. In a thread with a lot of makers clips his will not get top billing. In a thread all it's own he and people who either work for him or know him can keep posting to that thread and keep it at the top of the page. He and or his wife know the in's and out's of the internet and how to keep your name or product on the search engines. Not saying thats a bad thing, smart business if you ask me. But also a ploy to keep your name at the top and every other guy at the bottom, again good business. I am posting my PAF clips in it's own post there today if I have time then the people can decide what they really like instead of always seeing 1 makers stuff. Cmon Possum, Jon, Mick, Wolfe, Wade etc.... Get over there and post some clips, we need to get a foot hold over there or Will, will stay at the top there. No disrespect to Will with this post, Just business

PS I didn't add Spence's name cause I know he doesn't like using sound clips

[kevinT]

well its impossible to have no eddy currents. He is just probably checking the inductance is correct for his recipe, too high inductance usually means a shorted couple of turns in the coil. Yeah he ought to do that to check what was shipped to him to make sure its good to go for the customer. I check all mine before they go out the same way and he uses the same Extech meter I use :-) Seen a picture of him using it in one of his ads....

I'm still learning the science side of pickups...will inductance always be higher than the DC resistance? if so, usually by how much (percent?) What would you look for if it was shorted?

[Rosewood]

From the Bl site,

<<<Finally, each pickup has to pass our quality control check.

We measure the DC and the total resistance, the inductance and the Q Factor; but most importantly, I have developed a system that detects minor shorts or semi-shorts in a coil. These shorts will cause eddy currents to flow in the coil. Eddy currents interfere with the signal, alter the sound reproduction and cause severe losses. All coils must be free of internal eddy current interferences to pass our final inspection. >>>

Dave, are you saying his "system" is the extech reading for finding or eliminating eddy currents?

[R.G.]

Dave, are you saying his "system" is the extech reading for finding or eliminating eddy currents?

I don't know what Dave is saying, but I do know that any short or semi-short in the coil makes that loaded area into the loaded secondary of a transformer, being driven by the rest of the coil. That kind of thing is clearly visible by watching the complex impedance the coil presents.

[kevinT]

I'm still learning the science side of pickups...will inductance always be higher than the DC resistance? if so, usually by how much (percent?) What would the numbers look like in comparison....DCR vs. Inductance.

For example, if the pickup measured 8.5k Ohm what generally would the inductuance read for this amount of resistance or would the number be different for every pickup based on eddy currents that that particular pickup has. If I'm understanding it correctly

[Rosewood]

[QUOTE=kevinT;41069]For example, if the pickup measured 8.5k Ohm what generally would the inductuance read for this amount of resistance or would the number be different for every pickup based on eddy currents that that particular pickup has. If I'm understanding it correctly[/QUOTE

You would have to compare the same type pickups.

[David Schwab]

Maybe somebody else already answered but just in case -- the 42 coil would have more more bass/mid and more overall output because the coil would be bigger/wider and see a bigger hunk of string. As for the EXACT amount of difference, I can't say.

I've been finding that thinner gauge wire has more bass/mids, and the heavier stuff has more highs. So I've been using 42 for neck pickups and 43 and higher for bridge pickups.

But then a smaller coil is brighter...

[Possum]

shorts...

Just look at the AC resistance on the Extech, thats where you will see shorts, probably what Bill does since he doesn't mention measuring it :-) Some system. But maybe he is doing that transformer thing mentioned. Thing is though if the short is that small that it will only show up doing that method its probably not going to affect the tone of the pickup much. Heck it might even be desirable to have some shorting in pickups like heavy formvar that are really bright, some old vintage strat pickups like that have shorts to the magnets but it doesn't really do anything bad.

[corduroyew]

^best pickup I ever wound has a short in it. People keep asking me to reproduce the pickup for them but I can't figure out how

[David Schwab]

^best pickup I ever wound has a short in it. People keep asking me to reproduce the pickup for them but I can't figure out how

Bill Lawrence has some patents for pickups with closed loops in them, either in the center or the outside of the regular wraps. His reasoning is it flattens out the resonant peaks in the coil. I bet he discovered this when he had a short in the coil.

I've wound a few that shorted on the steel blade. When I measured from the blade to the start of the coil I could see a small amount of resistance, usually several hundred Ohms. If I wanted to reproduce that coil I could probably wind to that resistance, connect those turns as a loop, and start a new coil on top of it.

So you might be able to determine an approximation of the shorted section by comparing the resistance of each coil.

Something to think about anyway.

[David Schwab]

The difference here may be that Lawrence is winding a tight perfect layer wind, meaning each wind goes down right next to the last one, he is a machine winder and says bad things about hand winders.

Bill really seems to like things precise. He used to wind both his humbucker coils at the same time to ensure they had the exact same number of turns. He might still do that.

He also says that the chrome plating on the L-500 is these to affect the tone!

Some of his patents for stacked coils go into excruciating detail about how thick the partition between coils must be, etc.

I guess if you can control every detail to a small enough level, once you find your tone, you can consistently reproduce it.