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  • #46
    Originally posted by Mike Sulzer View Post
    In the neighborhood of the resonance with the cable, a pickup can easily be higher than 200K.
    Yes, but in the context of his post, he was talking about winding a transformer that high.

    that's a thousand times as big an impedance, and hence, the transformer would have to have around 32 times as many windings as the AS104
    In context, the Alumitone's transformer reads 5K, not 200K. Not a very big coil. Not a lot of winds.
    It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. Albert Einstein


    http://coneyislandguitars.com
    www.soundcloud.com/davidravenmoon

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    • #47
      Originally posted by alexoest View Post
      A good example of this advantage can be seen on Rick Toone's Skele guitar.
      Hey, it's our very own bbsailor!

      It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. Albert Einstein


      http://coneyislandguitars.com
      www.soundcloud.com/davidravenmoon

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Mike Sulzer View Post
        I am puzzled by this interest in single turn pickups.
        This type of pickup could also find a nice home at the end of the fingerboard of an EUB. A single loop of wire could easily conform to the short radius.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by David Schwab View Post
          In context, the Alumitone's transformer reads 5K, not 200K. Not a very big coil. Not a lot of winds.
          5K is the dc resistance? If so then what one needs to know is the impedance as a function of frequency with the pickup attached. It would probably fall within the range of what you can do with an ordinary pickup

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          • #50
            Yes, the DC resistance is 5K. The output level is like that of a regular pickup.
            It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. Albert Einstein


            http://coneyislandguitars.com
            www.soundcloud.com/davidravenmoon

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by David Schwab View Post
              Yes, the DC resistance is 5K. The output level is like that of a regular pickup.
              What's the inductance, as measured while connected to the pickup turn? That's the core of Mike's question.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Joe Gwinn View Post
                What's the inductance, as measured while connected to the pickup turn? That's the core of Mike's question.
                I have no way of measuring that. However, I checked the Lace site and they do list that info:

                Lace Alumitone Bass Bars
                Sizes: 3.5", 4.0" and 4.5"
                Position: Neck, Bridge
                Resistance: 5.0K
                Peak Frequency: 3800
                Inductance: 2.7 henries

                Lace Music Products | Since 1979 | Electric Pickups
                It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. Albert Einstein


                http://coneyislandguitars.com
                www.soundcloud.com/davidravenmoon

                Comment


                • #53
                  And why not put one or more additional turns on the very low Z pickup? Frequency response and resonance will probably not drop into the audible zone, and you'd get more current to work with, right? That would mean a lower turns current transformer. Heck, make the primary coil out of silver to keep the DCR as low as possible.

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                  • #54
                    Don't forget to trademark "Silvertone". If it's still available.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by David Schwab View Post
                      I have no way of measuring that. However, I checked the Lace site and they do list that info:

                      Lace Alumitone Bass Bars
                      Resistance: 5.0K
                      Peak Frequency: 3800
                      Inductance: 2.7 henries

                      Lace Music Products | Since 1979 | Electric Pickups
                      I would guess that the Peak Frequency (3800 Hz) is the resonant frequency; this is far lower than expected, and explains why it's sold for Bass.

                      The inductance is far larger than expected from ordinary current transformers, unless they have a whole lot of turns. The transformer will also cause the inductance of the one-turn primary to appear, suitably transformed.

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                      • #56
                        Brilliant, Joe! I'll look into it.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          SMC Music Oh, well...

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Rick Turner View Post
                            And why not put one or more additional turns on the very low Z pickup? Frequency response and resonance will probably not drop into the audible zone, and you'd get more current to work with, right? That would mean a lower turns current transformer. Heck, make the primary coil out of silver to keep the DCR as low as possible.
                            Actually, the fact that you have a one turn pickup with an inductance similar to that of a normal pickup (see specs David quoted above) suggests that you do not gain much of anything by using a transformer and fiddling with the ratios.

                            And you do not.

                            Suppose you double the number of turns on the pickup. You get twice the voltage; you use half the turns ratio. The pickup coil has four times the inductance (if you hold the geometry the same). But the impedance transformation ratio of the transformer is the square of the turns ratio so you end up with the same inductance looking back into the secondary. Even the resistance looks the same because you use smaller wire when you increase the number of turns.

                            So where is the improvement? In fact, transformers are not perfect, so you actually lose something.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Mike Sulzer View Post
                              Actually, the fact that you have a one turn pickup with an inductance similar to that of a normal pickup (see specs David quoted above) suggests that you do not gain much of anything by using a transformer and fiddling with the ratios.

                              And you do not.

                              Suppose you double the number of turns on the pickup. You get twice the voltage; you use half the turns ratio. The pickup coil has four times the inductance (if you hold the geometry the same). But the impedance transformation ratio of the transformer is the square of the turns ratio so you end up with the same inductance looking back into the secondary. Even the resistance looks the same because you use smaller wire when you increase the number of turns.

                              So where is the improvement? In fact, transformers are not perfect, so you actually lose something.
                              Mike and all

                              Sorry for my delay in responding to this thread but I just returned from a 10 day vacation in Europe and a cruise up the Rhine River from Amsterdam to Switzerland. I had no cell phone, access to the internet or desire to stay connected as I immersed myself in European culture, architecture and history. But for now, it's back to reality and comments about pickup technology.

                              Joe Gwinn is quite right about about keeping the the primary loop resistance low and maintaining the integrity of the joint when threading the loop through a toroid current transformer. To make the loop joint, I have been using thin copper tubing, tinning the wire making and silver soldering the joint. To minimize heat thansfer to the toroid you can just use two large alligator clips as heat sinks. The CSE187L is an E-I laminated core type with a single loop of AWG 12 that requires two solder connections.

                              Mike is correct about transformers not being perfect. So where is the advantage to current based transformers? This discussion should be going in the direction of improved signal to noise ratio. High impedance pickups make good induced noise antennas with shielding attempts to minimize the noise but with some eddy current effects impacting the sound. Current-based pickups have a lower noise pickup, espicially when you ground the E-I laminated core frame to the low Z loop and send the signal out of the guitar in a balanced microphone way. Even in the unbalance mode, the noise is still lower. The amount of wire on a current transformer (CT) is less thus the distributed capacitance is less. With lower noise the output of a CT can drive the higher gain of an XLR microphone input preamp and then into a guitar amp for a wider range sound. Add some frequency shifting resonant peak EQ circuits (EMG-BQC) and you can tune a CT pickup to sound like most any traditional high impedance pickup.

                              The Alumitone interleaved "U-shapes" cores wrap around the metal frame so as to not need any secure connections of the low Z loop. It is inductivly coupled and uses two coils that have very fine wire and that are connected in parallel from what I can decuce from the Lace published resistance specifications. The coils be connected in either series or parallel for a tonal shift change. To get the output comparable with high impedance pickups, I suspect the number of turns on each small coil on the "U-shaped" laminated core is about 10,000 turns. Maybe Mike can do some reverse engineering on the physical core sizes with Dave's coil size input and offer some possibe turns ratios if the coils are in parallel or series. I believe the wire gauge is AWG 44 but a close examination of one of the Lace under- shell coils should put that to rest pretty quickly. The under-string loop resistance and turns ratio affects the tonal coloring or voicing of the pickup to favor the lower or higher frequencies.

                              I have offered up my research to kick off this topic, and a few folks are starting to expand on my initial posts and are making nice current-based pickups. Rick Toone lives near me and saw some of my earlier posts on this forum and invited me to his shop. He needed a very thin pickup that did not need the traditional hole behind the fingerboard. With a CT-based pickup you can arrange the "U-shaped" laminated cores on each end of the pickup so the only recess that is needed is about 1 sq inch on each side (to accommodate the coils) about 3 inches apart to not interrupt the acoustic string energy transfer from the neck to the bridge.

                              Summary: Low noise, less wire, wider frequency response and thinner physical size all offering guitar makers some new alternatives.

                              Thanks for your interest and I hope to see more comments and refinements in these new types of pickup.

                              Look at Bajaman posts for his clever CT design.

                              Thanks

                              Joseph Rogowski
                              Last edited by bbsailor; 08-15-2010, 03:29 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Joe Gwinn,


                                On the same web page Lace published the following information. Lace Aluma J-Bass
                                • Position: Neck, Bridge
                                • Resistance: 5.0K
                                • Peak Frequency: 3800
                                • Inductance: 60 henries
                                This 60 Henries seems too high but can 60 Henries be possibly the correct value. It seems more realistic that it is more like 6 Henries. What do you think?

                                Thanks

                                Joseph Rogowski
                                Last edited by bbsailor; 08-15-2010, 04:15 PM.

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