drill sharpeners? Any good....

[Possum]

XP

Haven't tried it yet, but it does reproduce the movement of hand sharpening. Heck if I can salvage and reuse these 7/64 drills and larger ones, its worth $100 in savings and time running to the store or waiting for mcmaster to ship stuff. I'll let you know how this thing turns out....

[Possum]

OK I tried it.....

I"m using mcmaster drill bits 7/64" I took one of the bits that was starting to get dull, these are the blue greyish bits, they are high quality high speed drill bits, not junk. I put a new tip on it and split the tip like the XP does. It looked kinda crude on the flat surfaces, since the diamond wheel is 180 grit I guess you should expect that. The split worked fine, I got perfect results after just two tries. I think it also changed the angle of the original tip, maybe thats why it took two tries.

Worked like a champ, drilled all 8 holes, no dulling of the tips this time still sharp when I finished. Went slow used mobil 1 synthetic motor oil for lube and pulled it out a couple times during drilling. So I"ll try it one some other bits but I think its probably a keeper. The 6 bits I got will last a long time using this thing so it should pay for itself. Its not a high quality built thing but it has a 3 year warranty on it so I'll probably get my money's worth out of it.

[Joe Gwinn]

I'm drilling 7/64" drill bit into a half inch of solid 1018 steel and the drills are pretty much dead by the time I'm done drilling 8 holes, kind of expensive and these aren't cheap drill bits either, about $3.50 each. and using lubrication.

Something is very wrong if you are getting only 8 holes per drill in mild steel. Some questions:

What is the make and model of drill bit?

What is the lubricant? How is it applied?

How fast (in RPM) is the bit turning?

I assume that you are using a drill press. What sound does the drill make while making the hole? What do the chips look like?

Are those drill bit sharpeners worth the money?

Not for such small bits.

Any good ideas on how to exactly center a drill bit on a 3/16" thick piece of steel? I wonder if an X/Y table like Micromark sells would help, my eyes are pretty bad and need some help.....

Please define "exactly". Given that the holes made by unrestrained twist drills can wander by 0.010", there is a limit to the degree of centering that is useful.

On a drill press, I find a centering scope to be the fastest, if the drill press has a quill lock. Failing that, people make a laser gadget that puts a dot on the workpiece, right at where the center of rotation intersects the surface.

Centering scope: http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?P...&PARTPG=INLMK3. I paid more like $170 on sale.

Laser center: http://littlemachineshop.com/product...ProductID=2604. I have not used this, but I hear that they do work, albeit less precisely than the centering scope.

And then there is the traditional wiggler: http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMAKA=86425295]. Do not buy an imported wiggler - they don't quite work, and the US stuff isn't expensive.


If the drill press does not have a quill lock, I would add one. All that's needed is a threaded hole perpendicular to the quill, with a brass screw that presses against the quill. Do not use steel, as it will damage the quill.

The better XY tables do work, but they don't solve the problem of finding the initial location. All the tables do is to move by calibrated amounts from an initial location.

Nor do they solve the problem of drill bit wander. For this, use a spotting drill to make the initial surface cut, followed by screw-machine length (short) twist drills to make the hole. One uses a spotting drill with the same point angle as the drills one is using. The better drills have 118-degree points, so a 120-degree spotting drill is a match. Not that a 90 degree spotting drill won't work reasonable well, but matching the angle yields the least wander.

Spotting drill (120 degree): [url[http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMAKA=85786168[/url].

Jobber (length) twist drills are too long and flexible for accuracy. Best drilling in steel is 118 degree split point: http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMAKA=81371072. These are $2.15 each, but the minimum quantity is 12.


However, if you are drilling lots of these holes in the same piece, such as the six holes in a pickup baseplate, it's best to make a jig for use on a drill press.

Use a piece of oil hardening steel for the drill plate. After making the plate, heat it to a red heat with a torch, and dangle it in a tub of corn oil to quench. Then temper at 450 F in an ordinary oven for an hour to temper.

In a piece of maple, cut a deep recess to accept the mild steel to be drilled, and a shallow recess to accept the drill plate. Allow space for a pool of coolant, so the drilling point is flooded. Drop mild steel in deep hole, place drill plate on top, and proceed.

If the maple piece is large enough, one can in perfect safety hold it by hand and slide it around on the drill press table while drilling the holes one by one.

[Woodenspoke]

Woodenspoke I'm sorry if I said something to offend, not my intention.

Not referring to your post at all. I don't care what people say or believe about tools. I have my own experiences which may be quite different from what others have posted. The reason I jumped in to this discussion and no one flamed me about my experiences with the drill doctor. But when I suggested using a steel with a lead content 12L14 the tone changed.

What I did take offense to is people who have to show how superior they are by saying things like like "lead in the steel make your ears bleed in a pickup didn't you know fool". May not have been said that way but it came off that way. besides I don't even know if that's true or not. Something to put on my experimentation list since I am trying to learn as much as I can about pickup building a long overdue skill.

It's a lot easier to defend yourself when it is a subject you have experience with, like my 30 years as a woodworker and Luthier, now CNC mill and lathe experience. My profile is on The Project guitar forum under the same screen name if anyone cares.

Possum: great you got a good drill sharpener. Also forgot to mention it will sharpen carbide drill bits.................Shhh

[David King]

I'm pretty sure the Possum commentary about lead in pickups was with tongue planted firmly in cheek. Maybe you need to watch Spinal tap again? If you hang out a bit you might discover that many of us know a little bit about a lot of things and most of us don't take ourselves too seriously. If that's not the company you keep -feel free to start another pickup making forum somewhere else. Don't expect every member to look over your CV when you don't choose to use your real name. You want anonymity and that's fine but we won't bow down to you every time you grace us with your presence.

[Joe Gwinn]

I"m using mcmaster drill bits 7/64".

McMaster doesn't say who makes their stuff, so it's hard to say, but it should say on the shank.

I took one of the bits that was starting to get dull, these are the blue greyish bits, they are high quality high speed drill bits, not junk. I put a new tip on it and split the tip like the XP does. It looked kinda crude on the flat surfaces, since the diamond wheel is 180 grit I guess you should expect that. The split worked fine, I got perfect results after just two tries. I think it also changed the angle of the original tip, maybe that's why it took two tries.

Worked like a champ, drilled all 8 holes, no dulling of the tips this time still sharp when I finished.

Great. How long did it take to sharpen a bit?

I would go for the cobalt drill bits. They will stay sharp far longer.

Went slow used mobil 1 synthetic motor oil for lube and pulled it out a couple times during drilling.

Mobil 1 isn't really a metalworking fluid. For one thing, it's too good a lubricant, and lacks the chemical ingredients (sulfur and/or chlorine) needed for cutting metal. Far better for mild steel would be the standard, black sulfur oil, which can be bought at Home Depot. Also, there is an optimum speed, which for a small drill is pretty fast, like 2000 or 3000 rpm (with coolant).

If you don't like black sulfur oil (which I still use), there are the water/oil emulsions. What I use is Rustlick WS-5050: http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMAKA=00269332. Don't let the picture bother you - there really is a one gallon size. One mixes the concentrate 10:1 or 20:1 with tap water, making this baby blue milky emulsion. No smell to speak of, washes off with soap and water. Works very well. For the record, last Sunday I was using 5050 for drilling a 21/32 inch hole in a piece of 0.75" thick mild steel, and later while milling the sides off another similar slab.

So I"ll try it one some other bits but I think its probably a keeper. The 6 bits I got will last a long time using this thing so it should pay for itself. It's not a high quality built thing but it has a 3 year warranty on it so I'll probably get my money's worth out of it.

Isn't that backwards? The longer the bits last, the less likely it is for the sharpener to pay for itself.

[David Schwab]

There's a famous story about that weird classical instrument made of glass bowls turning in a bath of water, you play each bowl like wet finger on a wine glass. Well, the early ones they used leaded glass and audiences that listened to its music became nauseous.

Benjamin Franklin's armonica (glass harmonica)

The instrument's popularity did not last far beyond the 18th century. Some claim this was due to strange rumors that using the instrument caused both musicians and their listeners to go mad. (It is a matter of conjecture how pervasive that belief was; all the commonly cited examples of this rumor are German, if not confined to Vienna.). This was not true nor are the other superstitions listed below. The only danger from the old lead glass type of Glass Harmonica was the possibility of lead poisoning from rubbing the glass...

One example of fear from playing the glass harmonica was noted by a German musicologist Friedrich Rochlitz in Allgemeine Musikalische Zeitung where it is stated that "the armonica excessively stimulates the nerves, plunges the player into a nagging depression and hence into a dark and melancholy mood that is apt method for slow self-annihilation. If you are suffering from any nervous disorder, you should not play it; if you are not yet ill you should not play it; if you are feeling melancholy you should not play it."

[David King]

Sounds like the original blues harp.

[Possum]

?????

Well Woodenspoke you're reading things in my posts that aren't there. Lead isn't ROHS compliant for one thing, and I posted the infomation about the lead glass bowls as a fascinating piece of trivia. None of that was directed at anyone and no attitude behind any of it. FWIW none of us here think of ourselves as "master pickup makers" I fall on my face as much as any newbie does but I trip over other stuff and believe me I get my face bloodied on some forums often. Can't please everyone and no attitude here

[Possum]

Joe...

Joe, I was probably not using good drill procedure for deep holes. Towards the end of the drilling it would kinda make a kachunka noise like something got in the hole with the drill. Dipping it in and out a couple times during drilling seems to have helped, I'm using Mobil 1 synthetic oil because I have some, it works I guess. I beg to differ but using the drill doctor on that 7/64 bit drilled 8 holes no sweat and plenty sharp when done, I'm keeping it. Probably the more I use it the diamond will wear down a little for smoother flat surfaces I guess, but they its good for down to 3/32" so they ought to know I think. I don't think they make a finer grit wheel just 180 and 100 I think.

[Joe Gwinn]

Joe, I was probably not using good drill procedure for deep holes. Towards the end of the drilling it would kinda make a kachunka noise like something got in the hole with the drill. Dipping it in and out a couple times during drilling seems to have helped.

The kachunka noise probably means you are having the chips jam in the drill flutes. I'm surprised that the drill bit didn't jam and break. What you call "dipping" is called "peck drilling", and is a standard approach.

By the way, running a 7/64" drill through a 3/16" thick piece of mild steel is not considered deep drilling. It sounds like you are being too cautious, and not spinning the bit fast enough. There is also an optimum rate of progress of bit into metal. You will know that you have found it when the bit makes two long spiral chips when drilling steel or aluminum, and makes only a hissing kind of noise (probably masked by motor noise). One purpose of pecking is to limit the length of such chips.

Search around in the RPM by down-pressure space to find this optimum. You will know when you find it, and will be surprised by how much difference it makes.

Note that the optimum for stainless steel is very different than that for mild steel. Stainless requires lower RPMs, more torque, and far more downward pressure. In short, stainless steel requires a heavy hand.

I'm using Mobil 1 synthetic oil because I have some, it works I guess.

Try the black sulfur oil. One can get a pint from HD, or any local plumbing supply house.

I beg to differ but using the drill doctor on that 7/64 bit drilled 8 holes no sweat and plenty sharp when done, I'm keeping it. Probably the more I use it the diamond will wear down a little for smoother flat surfaces I guess, but they its good for down to 3/32" so they ought to know I think.

The issue with the drill doctor is not if it can sharpen such bits (it certainly can), but rather is it economically worthwhile to do so.

In industry, nobody sharpens such bits except to make a special-purpose tool. One just buys the bits by the gross. What kills the deal is the labor cost of resharpening. Only makes sense with far larger bits. (I buy large bits (more than 0.5" dia) used, and sharpen them freehand on a grinder. It isn't as hard as it sounds, and the price is right.)

I don't think they make a finer grit wheel just 180 and 100 I think.

I don't know that they make their own grit wheels, so I'd look around to see what else will fit. Actually, I'd call Drill Doctor up and ask them.

[David Schwab]

Sounds like the original blues harp.

he he he!

[Woodenspoke]

Well Woodenspoke you're reading things in my posts that aren't there. Lead isn't ROHS compliant for one thing, and I posted the infomation about the lead glass bowls as a fascinating piece of trivia. None of that was directed at anyone and no attitude behind any of it. FWIW none of us here think of ourselves as "master pickup makers" I fall on my face as much as any newbie does but I trip over other stuff and believe me I get my face bloodied on some forums often. Can't please everyone and no attitude here

A misconception on my part. Hard not to be defensive after posting on Project Guitar Forum for way to long. My mistake.

Also you can grind solid carbide bits on the Drill doctor FYI

RohS compliance, Hummm. I have to put that on my to do list along with building my first pickup LOL

[Dave Kerr]

W, there's a pretty good thread on ROHS related stuff from a few months back, it's a real rats nest in terms of keeping workspaces and tooling clear of any residual lead. Not unlike keeping a kosher kitchen - strict adherance to the EU regs is pricey, and even more expensive if you're talking about making compliant a non-conforming operation. Something to consider if you think you might ever market yuor stuff over there (or if you think the USA may adopt those same regs).

[Possum]

cool.....

Woodenspoke, glad you finally figured out I'm not trying to be mean to you :-) I can come off sometimes as being a bit opinionated but its not meant to be mean. Yeah this is not a "mean" forum per se and sure there are some heated exchanges but its not a place where you will get torn apart for having an opinion of any kind like some forums I've also been on :-) Heck, most of us have been kicked off permanently from the Les Paul Forum and the TDPRI forum, where simply mentioning that you make pickups and have opinions is terms for being banned :-) anyway, nuff of that......

As far as the ROHS thing its really only important if you are shipping boxes of 100s of pickups to europe that customs will take a close look at. Selling pickups one at a time direct to customers over there you can get away with it. But its good to be aware of those laws and I would definitely not use leaded alloys in pickups, though I know I've heard from a machinist that he does cut slugs out of that 12L14 or whatever that stuff is, for one customer who likes it. Being more of a purist myself I try to stick with simple alloys that have a history of use in old pickups. It would seem to me that having a piece of steel peppered with lead inside it would dilute down magnetically whats going on in a way I probably wouldn't like, plus I really don't want to be using and working with lead on my lathe, can't be too good to be handling that stuff I think?