Tony Iommi humbuckers

[Possum]

yeh....

go here:
http://www.pat2pdf.org/
paste in the patent number then when it grabs the pdf it will show up in a blue link, click that to download to pdf

[NightWinder]

Thanks. That was a but better reading. C8 and A2 are sitting on top of eachother in the same direction to the poles- Seems like it would weaken over time..Both are stated as being Northsame to the Blades so sitting on top of eachother Like that could contribute to the overall Phase issue? Fun stuff : )

[kevinT]

wow, this pickup design is interesting.

I have Tony's Star Licks Lead guitar series instructional video from the 80s. He has a really compressed tone. To me, it's almost wierd sounding.

Did it mention the DCR anywhere?.....i didn't see it....or am i just blind.

[Possum]

...

No it doesn't have the DCR but it does have the turn count in 44 guage wire, yeah that WOULD sound compressed, I think they were wound fairly hot, and with blades that would really do that....

[salvarsan]

Getting pickup patents

Can anyone post a link....I totally can't find the damn thing!!

Most of the pickup patents are hosted in the Pickupedia in a sortable list.
http://www.pickupedia.info/Patents

The links go to a local copy of the patent.

Sometimes, it helps to sort on the "Assignee" column
so you can see who has been busy at the patent office.

-drh

[NightWinder]

Guesstamate!!

No it doesn't have the DCR but it does have the turn count in 44 guage wire, yeah that WOULD sound compressed, I think they were wound fairly hot, and with blades that would really do that....

6,900 turns 44= 8.8k estimate. safe to say 9k per bobbin. Also depends on the stretch or tension. Probably between 17.8k and 18k

[digthisbigcrux]

well, has anyone o'scoped it to see if it is indeed out of phase? if it is, i wonder if putting a capacitor between the coils (if you have a 4 wire one) would help? i have one, and its pretty worthless clean but thats what the mini humbucker in the neck is for

ive thought about doing this, but havent gotten around to it.

[David Schwab]

well, has anyone o'scoped it to see if it is indeed out of phase?

You mean out of phase with itself? I doubt it, it would sound very thin and hum.

[fieldwrangler]

David Schwab wrote:

I've been exploring magnet placement and pole shapes. I think that's where new ideas are yet to be discovered using the traditional wire and magnet pickups, as opposed to the lo-Z current designs.

David:

Couldn't agree more. I find that the "sensing surface" (the intersection of the field and the moving string section) in conjunction with the field/coil orientation seems to have the largest effect on the envelope, which is my current area of interest.

Bob Palmieri

[David Schwab]

Well I have to say that two years later and I'm starting to work on low Z pickups again.... Tried out a lot of ideas in that time, and some look more interesting on paper.

[fieldwrangler]

The Real World

David Schwab wrote:

Tried out a lot of ideas in that time, and some look more interesting on paper.

David:

I believe it was Snagglepuss who said... 'Aint it the truth"...

Bob Palmieri

[David Schwab]

I believe it was Snagglepuss who said... 'Aint it the truth"...

"Exit, stage left...."

[Sweetfinger]

You mean out of phase with itself? I doubt it, it would sound very thin and hum.

The idea is that there are elements within the pickup (magnetic field orientation) that produce a SLIGHT phase cancellation. We're not talking about the ol' "I wired my Duncan wrong" sound.
....And it is possible to construct a humbucker that is out of phase i.e. no hum. You just have to have the same magnetic polarity on both coils.

[David Schwab]

The idea is that there are elements within the pickup (magnetic field orientation) that produce a SLIGHT phase cancellation. We're not talking about the ol' "I wired my Duncan wrong" sound.

Take a look at the patent for that pickup. That's not what's going on.

The magnets are always lined up so the poles are the same. See the first picture below.

And as Mike S will point out, the magnets merely magnetize the strings. There is no magnetic phase cancelation.

....And it is possible to construct a humbucker that is out of phase i.e. no hum. You just have to have the same magnetic polarity on both coils.

If both coils have the same magnetic polarity, it's not a humbucker. It's two single coils next to each other, and that will hum if they are in phase. If you wire them out of phase they wont hum, but they will sound thin. The reverse polarity magnets puts the strings back in phase. Take a Strat for an example. If the neck and middle have the same magnetic polarity, they will not hum cancel together unless you wire them out-of-phase, and then they will sound thin.

The Iommi pickup does not have both coils with the same magnetic polarity. It's a regular humbucker, but with three magnets. Two on top of each other on the bottom. And a small one one top. They are different kinds of magnets. 22 is a ceramic 8, 24 and 26 is an Alnico II. Each coil is wound with 6,900 turns of 44AWG (according to the patent).

[Sweetfinger]

Take a look at the patent for that pickup. That's not what's going on.

In reference to Possum's observations, I don't think GIBSON knows exactly what's going on there. Its just a jumble of parts stuck together that they decided to patent. My guess is that all those magnets crammed on make for a complex bunch of flux lines that end up partially cancelling some frequencies. Maybe this design produces lots of oddly positioned eddy currents that are killing selective frequency response. If you have a good idea of why this pickup sounds the way it does, you're probably way ahead of the people who built it!

And as Mike S will point out, the magnets merely magnetize the strings.

I was under the impression that the strings don't need to be magnetized per se. ...That the string is disturbing the magnetic field and those disturbances are what induces the signal in the coil windings. They also induce eddy currents, which can be looked at as though they are magnetic phase cancellation. Call it what you want. The effect is real and you can hear it.

If both coils have the same magnetic polarity, it's not a humbucker. It's two single coils next to each other

Magnetic polarity has NOTHING to do with the humbucking effect. Pull the magnets out, or shove 'em back in however you like. Doesn't affect the humbucking quality in the slightest.
A humbucking pickup (last time I checked) looks suspiciously like "two single coils next to each other". OF COURSE a humbucker with both coils having the same magnetic polarity will sound thin- I never said it wouldn't- but it IS a humbucker.