Fat Tone pickups

[txstrat]

Well,

to me it seems the subject got a little out of the focus.
I think we have a little lack of politeness here. Tommy was just describing what he does (or let do, for some of us) and being proud of it. I think he can be proud, if not alone for the reason to give guitar players a good piece of work for a price that is not over hyped like so many others.

What Tommy got bashed for is, to admit that he somewhere uses korean made materials. He uses american made materials, where the korean stuff can't match. That's pretty OK with me.

I assume the Koreans can make magnets and wire too, cause the process of the making should be very similar too, except they have a raw ore thats of poorer quality (excuse my sarcasm).
Does anyone know the pickup makers in Korea? Who wants to compete with 20 years of expierience? Or anyone want to compete with Abigail Ybarra?
I believe the process of making pickups is very similar no matter where it's done.

I imagine the following: there are two guys winding pickups one in the US and one in Korea.
They both have a similar amount of expierience in what they're doing and get almost the same quality of components.
Who can tell the difference between these pickups?
There is sort of a hype about boutique made stuff like amps, pickups, effects etc. and think some of these guys sometimes just exploit the situation.

Most guitars worldwide are equipped with machine built PUs and they sometimes sound pretty good.
I believe a machine can wind more evenly than a man. Or does the pickup sound better when in the middle of the winding process there is a lack of tension in the wire?
Honestly, I think the sound difference between pickups is more a matter of windings and wire gauge or maybe materials than a actually a matter who wound them. Am I wrong?
Sure, there are different prices for different materials and handmade is always a more expensive. But I think we should concede FatTone PUs their place in the scope.

Matt

[Possum]

Varney....

Tommy, I'll pass it along to Varney, your hi that is. Eric Gales is an awesome player, I put extra effort into doing his packaging, guy is a true artist.

Yeah, I'm going for it, doing album packaging for a small indy label is a sure road to the poor house, acid reflux deadlines and I'm getting too old to take that kind of stress just to be poor. I figure I can easily match what I was making doing pickups and have alot more fun inventing new stuff etc. The plastic world of advertising and art direction I sorta left behind 6 years ago and only kept Shrapnel as a client, basically couldn't find any more clients due to an overcrowded field and declining standards in that industry. I may yet do some covers for Shrapnel if they want my style but I've been a designer for over 30 years and f*cking tired of that life.

I gotta say it takes alot of courage, more than I have, to tie your wagon to selling and importing pickups, thats a huge elephant to move around, dealing with customs, keeping your suppliers on track, then the marketing and shows and ad campaigns and costs. I"ve had conversations with the guy who has GFS and he deals with alot of stress and travels alot....not for me. I just want to stay small and make a very high quality product line and put food on the table in the process. My marketing and design background now goes into making ME look good instead of everybody else on the planet I've busted my ass for over the long haul, its my turn to shine a little myself :-)

[Edward R]

Mick

Wow, you are rally a classy guy. I simply call you out on the fact that you questioned a man's pride because he does business differently than you do. How do you react? swearing, sexual innuendo.... Basically like a child. I don't care if you are busy or not, I am not going to buy your overpriced pickups that you made on gramma's old sewing machine, and I don't make pickups for a living... SO how do I have sour grapes? Actually, I think my grapes would be in great condition, because now I have a new pickup company to try pickups from, that aren't ridiculously priced, and probably sound nearly as good as anything out there now (especially to my ignorant musical ears! Possums point is very valid...).

But in the end Mick, my problem is with you - the way you reacted (yes, I did read all your posts) to Fat Tone, and now to me. I haven't dropped any perverse, rude comments, just saying that you acted like a PATHETIC CHILD. Well, theres one.... You give the other Mick a bad name....

[GlennW]

There's someone else named Mick?

[EtLa]

I imagine the following: there are two guys winding pickups one in the US and one in Korea.
They both have a similar amount of expierience in what they're doing and get almost the same quality of components.
Who can tell the difference between these pickups?
There is sort of a hype about boutique made stuff like amps, pickups, effects etc. and think some of these guys sometimes just exploit the situation.

That is exactly why I don't like the word boutique I prefere the word artisan for what I am doing.

[Stan H]

That is exactly why I don't like the word boutique I prefere the word artisan for what I am doing.

boutique...sounds like the shop where my wife buys knick-knacks.

[kevinT]

I know that you make them for about $15 a pop and probably charge almost $150 for them. Ask yourself, which is more troubling, him offering a product marked up 10 times to $70 a pickup, or you marking up 10 times to $150 a pickup. Seems to be about the same....
ER

Humbuckers cost us quit a bit more than $15 to make. If you're referring to stew-mac kits, most of us here don't use those kits and we source our components or make them ourselves from other sources in order to improve the quality of our product. Those kit also don't account for wire and the makers expertise (in terms of R&D to create our own individual product), and time to build our products.

Like i said before, this is a capitalist society, and folks can charge what they want to meet thier needs and costs. There are also many items to consider in deciding what we charge. For example, my time is very valuable (just as everyone elses is), and i spent many hours of research and went to great efforts sourcing many of my parts. I build my pickups one at a time myself and i feel that i have a great product that i am offering players that is different. I feel that it is worth the $120 that i charge for one humbucker. I also allow folks to return it if they're not happy with thier purchase. Folks just don't have to buy a pickup if they think it is too much for thier budget or if they think they're overpriced. It's that simple. Please don't dis boutique makers for charging what they charge for their product.

Materials and labor is a lot less in asia and that is why companies like GFS can take advantage of those cost savings and charge $50-$70 a pop for a pickup.

Additionally, boutique makers are small and usually can't take advantage of volume discounts and buy parts and supplies in large quantity because we just don't have that kind of overhead for bulk purchases. I have also spent many thousands of dollars on equipment and supplies to build my product (and it is far from grandma's sewing machine...and there is nothing wrong with using a sewing machine if the maker feels comfortable with that method) ....and just like any business, you have to price your product to cover the costs of those investments.

Lastly, there are folks (boutique makers) that have strong opinions on import pickups that are made in asia using cheap labor and lower cost parts. It is just the way it is. I don't have a problem with it personally. I guess my point is that no one is going to change the other's opinion about the matter...there is no sense in insulting one another because our opinions are different.

One last thing, Tommy what is your knowlege of pickups. Most of us here build our own and have not hired or needed to hire an engineer. I am just curious, is your focus mainly on the business side of pickups in terms of making money or do you wind and craft pickups?

It also would be nice if you chimed in on some threads to share your knowledge instead of staying only on this thread.

[Edward R]

KevinT

I wasn't knocking the mark-ups, just showing that the markups from an import and a "boutique" pickup are pretty similar. I don't like how it is thrown around that the Fat Tone are jobbing the buyer with excessive markups, where those are the markups you will find with a handwound. That is the cost of busniess and you can't fault anyone. As you alluded to, you have to price in enough to carry your overhead, experience, and most importantly, time. But so does a Fat Tone or GFS, with even more going into advertising, which alot of smaller guys don't get involved with. Then for an earlier poster to make farce of their "pride" on this really got me going. Pride plays no part in this...

Also note that factoring in tool cost is not part of the $15 dollar materials I noted. But in the end, for the parts I sourced, from Allparts, GJ, a little place in Finland, and some others, with magnet wire and magnet, run me about $15 per pickup. And I am sure that is not in bulk like most here buy, maybe 1-0-20 of each part. Less expensive than Stew Mac kits for pretty good parts. I could even publish the price list for all parts here if you would like.

I meant the other "Mick's", as a tongue in cheek reference to Irishmen like myself!

But don't take my diatribe as a knock on winders, I have tried several who post on this forum, and they are all great. One guy that posts here often has the most indepth knowledge of electric pickups I have ever talked with, and as you noted Kevin, I don't mind paying for that expertise. But it is nice to have an affordable option that delivers pretty good tone, ala Fat Tone or even GFS, for those projects that don't need a $300 set of pickups.

Be proud of your work, but please don't knock others pride in there business... as others here seem to do.

ER

[Fat Tone Tommy]

Reply

Kevin,

i agree. If you are buying parts in small quantities and making them yourself, then what you charge should absolutely reflect your time, labor, and your expertise. I generally buy higher end gear and don't have any problem paying a higher premium for it.

As to my knowledge on pickups, i have said before that I don't personally wind pickups and I am not trying to tout myself as that. Although I have installed and listened to just about every mainstream and widely known Boutique brand of pickup out there. I have been playing and selling High end guitars and amps and repairing guitars for about 20 years now. My specialties are Guitar Set Up, Fretwork and Wiring as well as building one off Custom Strats / Teles. I use whatever the customer wants in these. I have been the Gear Go To guy in Memphis for a long time now. I do tech work for individuals and studios. I like to think that I know what sounds good, as do alot of others. I was the product manager for St. Blues Guitars and did the redesign and set manufacturing spec to revive the line. I left shortly after i started the USA prototype process.

That Being said, I worked with my engineer extensively to define the sound of our pickups and make them a little different, according to what i want to hear. My ears and his know how. I don't have the ability to translate what I want to hear into the pickup itself.

I saw what I perceived to be a big hole in the pickup market and that with my engineer and a good winder, could definitely make something better in sound and quality than what is out there in this price range.

I love nothing more than talking gear and would be happy to lend my knowledge of guitars, tube amps and tone to other threads. Right now, back to work.

Take Care,
TommyB

[Spence]

There's room for all of us in the world market. Everyone needs something unique to sell their own pickups. Let's try and be a little bit more respectful of each other. It's a pointless exercise arguing amongst ourselves about who's right and who's wrong etc., and an even bigger waste of time blathering on about your own brand on this forum.
I respectfully suggest that if someone asks a question about a brand of pickups on this forum that they be pointed in the direction of that particular brand's website. The thread should then be closed. This forum is about pickup-making not pickup making and shameless sales spiel.

[mick]

Mick

Wow, you are rally a classy guy. I simply call you out on the fact that you questioned a man's pride because he does business differently than you do. How do you react? swearing, sexual innuendo.... Basically like a child. I don't care if you are busy or not, I am not going to buy your overpriced pickups that you made on gramma's old sewing machine, and I don't make pickups for a living... SO how do I have sour grapes? Actually, I think my grapes would be in great condition, because now I have a new pickup company to try pickups from, that aren't ridiculously priced, and probably sound nearly as good as anything out there now (especially to my ignorant musical ears! Possums point is very valid...).

But in the end Mick, my problem is with you - the way you reacted (yes, I did read all your posts) to Fat Tone, and now to me. I haven't dropped any perverse, rude comments, just saying that you acted like a PATHETIC CHILD. Well, theres one.... You give the other Mick a bad name....

YAWN...at least I'm not an ass kisser.... like you are , and a hypocritical one to boot..


Mick aged 2 and 1/2 ( mentally...)

[mick]

Love the St Blues guitars..nearly bought one earlier this year but shipping would have killed it for me ..
You really have a hand in those Tommy.? Cool..

Mick

[Edward R]

hey, sometimes the wife likes a little lick further on down south....

and if you look up hypocritical in the dictionary, you'll see what I am saying is no where near the definition. All I am doing is asking you to cut a fella some slack because he does it a little different than you may. But in the end, perhaps it just damages your pride?

ER

[mick]

No damaged pride here Eddy , nor overpriced pickups , at least get your facts in order prior to commenting.
Making shitty comments about someones pickups while trying to defend someone else's from what you think were shitty comments is hypocritical , if you want to look up the meaning ..
He has been cut slack , I didn't see anything that wouldn't have been said to anyone else on here that had jumped up and down about how great their stuff is ...most on here manage to keep their feet on the ground and believe me some are well entitled to jump up and down about their work..
I really think that it's been a bit tame to be honest , must be the days of political correctness..


Mick ( aged 2 and 1/2 )

[dBe]

Tommy,

I'm brand new to this forum, but not to having experience with you. I spoke to you a couple of years ago when you were at St. Blues concerning their guitars. When we spoke I asked some very pointed questions about the Bluesmaster and, based upon our conversations, I ended up buying two of them. They are everything you said they are and are my favorite "affordable" instruments. I find myself playing them more than anything and, frankly, like them better than my '57 Tele.

That being said, I, for one, appreciate someone that does their best to bring affordable quality to players. I'm 60 years old and have seen a lot of crap heralded as "the holy grail" over 45 years. I've got many instruments and many different sounds at my fingertips. I have a pair of PAFs in a 61 Les Paul (SG) that sound like crap... too bad... I guess that I should sell them to some schmoe and let the "snob appeal" set in, but I won't - that guitar is part of a collection that is my IRA/401K...

I digress: I wanted to tell you not to let guys like Mick get you down. Life is too short to be assailed by people with sour grapes in the winepress.

I'll be in touch for a pickup or two for an Edwards LTS98 that I just got. It is a great player but a little lacking in the tone dept - EMG 81/85 combo - yecchhh!. I won't feel bad if it gets stolen or broken at a gig.

Anyway, my best,

Dave